15 replies to this topic

[dB Zac]

I started with rm2's but after I added the lipo 2s, they didn't last long. Now I have honeybagger's in a aluminum cage with aluminum smooth flywheels. I also wired the motors up for motor braking

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[joeybootz]

nice job man. I was thinking about getting one of those artifact FWC but I want the canted and they are sold out

[dB Zac]

I also wanted the canted one. I ended up ordering a 3D printed Dr snickis one instead. I'll throw that one in this gun since it is my main flywheel test bed. I'll reuse the artifact in another flywheel gun.
I also tried a 19/32 brass barrel mod. I got no added accuracy worth noting and lost a ton of fps. I tried the artifact smooth wheels but the worker wheels performed better so they are back in this gun

[Meaker VI]

nice job man. I was thinking about getting one of those artifact FWC but I want the canted and they are sold out

 

Canted is no bueno. It wastes some of the flywheel's energy putting spin on the dart, which - if it actually works at all - only works for a given cant at a certain specific RPM with a certain specific dart mass. Otherwise, you'll end up with more whirlybirds or a simply less efficient setup.

[dB Zac]

 

Canted is no bueno. It wastes some of the flywheel's energy putting spin on the dart, which - if it actually works at all - only works for a given cant at a certain specific RPM with a certain specific dart mass. Otherwise, you'll end up with more whirlybirds or a simply less efficient setup.

I was aware of the RPM/whirllybird collation, that is part of why I wasn't considering any 3S combos. I guess it also makes sense that some of the engery that normally moves the dart forward would now be spent spinning it, what good is added range without accuracy? I mean, wouldn't there be a sweet spot where range reduction with added accuracy would = more tags at range?

[dB Zac]

Got a hold of a Chrony today and I am very pleased. A low of 108. A high of 132, and an average of 122. I used the best of my very used elite darts

[joeybootz]

 

Canted is no bueno. It wastes some of the flywheel's energy putting spin on the dart, which - if it actually works at all - only works for a given cant at a certain specific RPM with a certain specific dart mass. Otherwise, you'll end up with more whirlybirds or a simply less efficient setup.

well then that settle's it lol. 

so you guys like the DRS one better then the Artifact?

[Airwolf13]

Drs is twice the money or more.
Question to ask yourself, are you getting twice the speed/accuracy?
My guess is no.
So get what you want, its your money.
Just be happy with owning a $200+ nerf gun.

[SirBrass]

From full spin up, how long does it take for your flywheels to spin down with motor braking? Just curious to see if my use of a diode is achieving a similar result.

[dB Zac]

I'll time it and get back to you

[Meaker VI]

I was aware of the RPM/whirllybird collation, that is part of why I wasn't considering any 3S combos.

Costing yourself even more potential FPS gain.
 

... what good is added range without accuracy? I mean, wouldn't there be a sweet spot where range reduction with added accuracy would = more tags at range?

Yes, but only if canting actually affects accuracy at all. I'm aware of no real evidence, in 12 years of activity in the NIC, that dart spin does anything at all.
 
Here, let me quote some people who are probably more well regarded on this issue than I am:
 

[regarding ideal cant angle] None, because spin=cock.
[The spin on accustrike darts] however, will have insufficient force to impart additional stability vs the same CM but NOT spinning. Hence spin is still cock.
... Optimal rpm of a drag stabilised projectile (AKA any NERF dart except those used by JSPB, which have a CoM in the middle) is nil.

[In reply to above] Not necessarily. In some cases (shotgun slugs, short nerf darts, and Tiberius First Strikes, off the top of my head) people have demonstrated cases of spin that don't cause destabilization although the projectile is designed to be drag stabilized with a forward COM.

It is a definite question for full lengths.

[different topic/post]
Conventional drag-stabilized darts are able to achieve sufficient accuracy, particularly given proper manufacturing process control, to make the most of what is ballistically safe to shoot at other people, all the way up to 300FPS (and beyond, way beyond) let alone stock class. There is no need for novel solutions, just the elimination of full length darts.

The hobby would be served best by proliferating the Pak Designs type tips, 1.25" foam lengths and gear built to use short darts from the get go.

[Same discussion, which I should just link to at this point] Some spin will almost certainly help BAD darts which would otherwise fly a curve. With spin, they can fly more of a corkscrew path, still not any form of "accurate" but closer to the initial heading.

Since (my estimate) about half of all non-new darts, and a slightly higher proportion of superstock "community bin" darts have such curves, spin could look like a good thing when evaluated purely with statistics. But (my opinion) it will induce discrepancies in the "best" darts too.

When using flywheels, I'm fine with using half a clip (9 darts) to make one hit. I just want that one hit, so if only two or three of 9 darts actually go where I pointed them, I'm fine. But with spin, one can expect every dart to corkscrew a little. So the two that would otherwise hit become near-misses, and the seven that would otherwise go wild also become near-misses. Fuck that noise.

I'm sure I could dig up posts from Doom and others actually on Nerf Haven as well; we've been talking about rifling forever (same effect as canting, different approach).

[SirBrass]

Well you could just add blades or wolverines and stay 2s as long as your lipo has the burst discharge rate to handle their stall requirements. That's why I'm 2s on my stryfe (blades). But my RS is going to be 3s because I got 3x hellcats for them.

And stick with the artifact red cage. Also if you like balanced plastic flywheels but don't want worker's serated ones, blaster parts makes smooth concave flywheels that containment crew sells. I haven't used them so I don't know about how well they're balanced but I'm considering getting them so I can avoid dart shred.

[dB Zac]

Costing yourself even more potential FPS gain. Yes, but only if canting actually affects accuracy at all. I'm aware of no real evidence, in 12 years of activity in the NIC, that dart spin does anything at all. Here, let me quote some people who are probably more well regarded on this issue than I am: I'm sure I could dig up posts from Doom and others actually on Nerf Haven as well; we've been talking about rifling forever (same effect as canting, different approach).

Rifling doesn't "spin" the nerf darts at all. Canted cages absolutely spin the dart, your argument of whirlybird and spent energy even points to "spinning" actually happening. The other thing I can't get over is arguing against real results, a good number of correct comparisons have been done on darts, I haven't seen one yet that doesnt show a better grouping from Accustrike darts over elite and koosh, among others.

[Meaker VI]

Rifling doesn't "spin" the nerf darts at all. Canted cages absolutely spin the dart, your argument of whirlybird and spent energy even points to "spinning" actually happening.

 

You're missing the point. Spinning doesn't = greater accuracy, at least as far as we know. In my quotes above, Bob-o-Bob asserts that it makes the darts less accurate, or at least, less predictable.

 

The other thing I can't get over is arguing against real results, a good number of correct comparisons have been done on darts, I haven't seen one yet that doesnt show a better grouping from Accustrike darts over elite and koosh, among others.

 
Still missing the point. The main discussion I linked was about Accustrikes, true. It turned into a discussion about what spin does or does not do to drag-stabilized projectiles like NERF darts. I didn't argue that Accustrikes are less accurate than Koosh or Elites, but that spinning any dart isn't necessarily beneficial, and that it may in fact be harmful.

 

As far as I've seen evidence and testing, it's better to get a straight/non-canted cage and run as much power as you can through it (up to +/-35,000 RPM; after which point it's more about seeking efficiency when using larger, more powerful, motors) than it is to get a canted cage.

 

It's further better to get a metal canted cage than to use the stock one - which is where the hype comes from IMO. The first metal cages on the market were canted, so the accuracy inherent to a stiffer assembly was realized and it was (IMO, mis-) attributed to the cant.

[SirBrass]

The reason accustrikes are so much more consistent in grouping is due to increased front weight compared to kooshes & elites. The reason kooshes are more consistent than elites is because of the uniform drag the head has, whereas the air hole on elites imparts turbulence on one side which causes those wild trajectories.

Edited by SirBrass, 01 March 2017 - 08:22 PM.

[dB Zac]

From full spin up, how long does it take for your flywheels to spin down with motor braking? Just curious to see if my use of a diode is achieving a similar result.

. Sorry, almost forgot about your question. Here is a link to a video https://goo.gl/photo...LWqBhMaSft3C3r9 I tried to exaggerate my rev trigger press and release for you