17 replies to this topic

[JackDC914]

So, recently, I and a friend had an argument over flywheels at NIC wars. Now, I mean modified, with perhaps the very least being a voltage increase. Personally, I think flywheels are stupid to bring to NIC wars, since they don't really fit the profile of homemades and heavily modded blasters. However, there are probably a ton of reasons that they should be included in NIC wars. So I ask you, what do you all think about flywheels at NIC wars?

[Daniel Beaver]

They're fine at outdoor wars. They have certain advantages, but range is not one of them.

I could understand why some people would have a problem with them at stock indoor wars (where ranges don't matter very much). They stand out as being non-human-powered.

[Birch]

This is a question I have been contemplating for a while now. I think about it way more than one person should, and I still have yet to come to good conclusion. My thoughts on the subject are mixed and inconclusive.

First off, for me to use a flywheel blaster against someone using a snapbow or a ESLT, I would need copious amounts of darts and clips, and a comfortable way of carrying those things. The necessity for ammo is greater for a flywheel blaster than a hoppered blaster because of its use on the field. A stryfe or rayven would be used as a rushing primary. The accurate range on a flywheel blaster is really going to top out at 70-80 feet, while a snapbow's is about 100-110. The rate of fire on a stryfe is about 2 darts a second, about 3-4 times that of a snapbow or plusbow.

What also must be considered is the ammo a stryfe and other flywheelers use. Most of the ammo that you will find at an NIC event is slug darts. These darts, regardless of their much shorter length, do not fire well out of flywheels due to the felt used to pad the front. Strands of fibre can get caught up in the flywheels and seriously fuck them up. If you are going to use a flywheeler, you will have to provide almost all of the ammo it will chew through. That being said, buying a couple hundred china knock-off darts is going to be about the same price as an equal amount of slugs.

I think putting all of my knowledge into writing has helped me come to a conclusion. In my opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a stryfe or rayven in an NIC game. Rushing strategies are very useful against people with low rate of fire blasters, and a rapidstrike or a stryfe is about as optimal as you can get in rushing blasters. Ammo for a stryfe is cheap, and most likely you already have a stash of elite darts and clips that you have subconsciously collected over the years. If you are one to take pot shots, don't use a flywheel, but for most everyone else, as long as you don't mind running, pick up a stryfe and some koosh darts and have fun.

[Snoop Doggy doge]

"Flywheels are theoretically (per the physics) a horribly inefficient and expensive means to get 300FPS to the point such a thing is an absurdity.
They are a stopgap, dirty, inelegant, "cheater" device that just happens to work out well for superstock, and nothing more.
The 120-150fps cap for superstock has a number of contributing factors. Accuracy of darts is one, but many of the darts become inaccurate well above or below that. Safety is another. Flywheel velocity ceiling is another." -Walker Finn,

This is an opinion I fully support, even though I seem like the guy who should run around with a stryfe since I still have a SAMBO class rig. However, if you want to you surely can, bring anything you fuckin have fun with, isn't that the whole point? If little Jerry (random name) wants to run around with a deploy/scout/tek3/insert_your_own_shitty_blaster fuckin do it. Sure they are out of place, and I personally don't like them but why prohibit fun if they have no advantage,

[Langley]

So, recently, I and a friend had an argument over flywheels at NIC wars. Now, I mean modified, with perhaps the very least being a voltage increase. Personally, I think flywheels are stupid to bring to NIC wars, since they don't really fit the profile of homemades and heavily modded blasters. However, there are probably a ton of reasons that they should be included in NIC wars. So I ask you, what do you all think about flywheels at NIC wars?

You should probably just tell him to try rolling a flywheel gun at an NIC war and be done with it. On the other hand, the guy who posted before me used the word 'fuck' a lot so he probably knows what he's talking about.

[Maniacal Coyote]

[Flywheels are] fine at outdoor wars. They have certain advantages, but range is not one of them.

Their advantages are rate-of-fire and intimidation. So what if you can't pop the Century-mark? You've got just as much ROF as some cyka with a Magstrike, but you have a bigger mag (35) and smaller reload-time. Also, you're letting absolutely everyone in earshot know you got the biggest balls on the battlefield.
The role of the flywheeler (Read: Stryfe/RS) is to get in, cause mayhem, and get out.
Keheheh, I've seen an extra-ninja player using twin-RS's with Raider drums and specially rigged pants with more drums ready. Impractical, but there's a bloody-good reason why nobody attempted to take him.
Also, the RS is perfect for a computerized system or some other crazy-assed shit like that.

You should probably just tell him to try rolling a flywheel gun at an NIC war and be done with it. On the other hand, the guy who posted before me used the word 'fuck' a lot so he probably knows what he's talking about.

Hmm, perhaps as a CQC blaster? I wonder how a double-action HAMP with twin detachable-reverse-extended-choppers would fare against a flywheeler...

[Snoop Doggy doge]

On the other hand, the guy who posted before me used the word 'fuck' a lot so he probably knows what he's talking about.

I'm a very acknowledgeable source,

[Birch]

"Flywheels are theoretically (per the physics) a horribly inefficient and expensive means to get 300FPS to the point such a thing is an absurdity.
They are a stopgap, dirty, inelegant, "cheater" device that just happens to work out well for superstock, and nothing more.
The 120-150fps cap for superstock has a number of contributing factors. Accuracy of darts is one, but many of the darts become inaccurate well above or below that. Safety is another. Flywheel velocity ceiling is another." -Walker Finn,

What must be understood is that fps does not directly correlate with range. I have modified stryfe (rm2 motor replacement, rewiring, electrical taped flywheels) that fires at around 100 fps. This being said, it outranges one of my overhauled nite finders (they shoot around 150 fps) by an appreciable margin. This guy has a very shallow understanding of the physics of Nerf, something that I am not all that knowledgable in too, but I would still say that he is wrong to an extent. Also, people always complain about the accuracy of flywheelers, just please go buy some of these darts. I have plugged them a few times before, and I can say that they are some of the cheapest, best performing darts for flywheelers you will ever encounter.

I wonder how a double-action HAMP with twin detachable-reverse-extended-choppers would fare against a flywheeler...

Flywheelers and HAMP's are pretty similar. Short range, extremely high capacity, fantastic rate of fire.

Edited by Birch, 20 April 2015 - 10:40 AM.

[Langley]

What must be understood is that fps does not directly correlate with range.

Yes, it does. If you are using the same darts (same mass and cross sectional area / air resistance), firing from the same angle at the same height, the average range should directly correlate to muzzle velocity.

Some possible exceptions off the top of my head:

One blaster imparts some wobble or fishtailing, which slows down the dart faster. All other factors being the same, I wouldn't expect to see a consistent difference in range caused by this factor.

In a springer or airgun where the barrel seal is air-tight, there may be a pressure wave that starts inside the barrel before the dart leaves the muzzle. This would be diminished if it is present at all in a flywheel gun. I wouldn't expect this to be a significant factor, but I don't know anything about fluid mechanics. Doom could probably work that out.

If you're getting higher velocity but less range from blaster A than blaster B, you're probably using different darts, firing from a different angle or height, or you need to increase your sample size. Put a couple hundred rounds through more than one blaster of each type in a side-by-side comparison using the same equipment and the same ammo, while bracing the barrels against something solid for consistency. You'll probably find that range is proportional to velocity. If not, you'll probably learn some interesting things about barrel extensions, flywheels, and springers.

[Birch]

Yes, it does. If you are using the same darts (same mass and cross sectional area / air resistance), firing from the same angle at the same height, the average range should directly correlate to muzzle velocity.

Yes, but only if you are using the same darts. If you are using different darts, as one would with a stryfe compared to a plusbow, they could be totally different. That is why I said it. If you are using a plusbow and a stryfe with elite darts, the plusbow should shoot farther.

[Langley]

Yes, but only if you are using the same darts. If you are using different darts, as one would with a stryfe compared to a plusbow, they could be totally different. That is why I said it. If you are using a plusbow and a stryfe with elite darts, the plusbow should shoot farther.

Okay, but velocity still directly correlates to range. I get that different guns require different ammo, but the ammo (and how much it is effected by air resistance) is what effects the ratio of velocity to range, not the gun. I know I'm nitpicking, but I still hear people say that their gun has good velocity but poor range, or the gun shoots 'hard but not far', which is totally wrong.

So for example, Of any two perfectly level shots from shoulder height in a vacuum, the dart with the higher velocity will always travel farther, even if the weight of the ammo or the shape is different. On the moon, your nitefinder would always shoot farther than your stryfe. Well, your nitefinder wouldn't fire at all on the moon, but you get the point.

[Keska]

Langley -

Your physics are right, but I think you're underestimating the effects of fishtailing/wobbling. I need to work on my SNAP's barrel because it has a terrible tendency to fire elite darts straight for 25-35 feet before they veer off sharply to one side.

[Maniacal Coyote]

Langley -

Your physics are right, but I think you're underestimating the effects of fishtailing/wobbling. I need to work on my SNAP's barrel because it has a terrible tendency to fire elite darts straight for 25-35 feet before they veer off sharply to one side.

My Stryfe is even worse, even when I have the elites/streamlines in the right way. When I stick them in backwards, the fishtailing is craptacular.

Edited by Maniacal Coyote, 21 April 2015 - 11:01 AM.

[Duke Wintermaul]

I'm a huge proponent for flywheel blasters. Yes, it might not be an 'end tier' technology but it's easy for anybody familiar with electronics to take to the max quickly.

With ~$30 worth of parts you can be averaging 123.7fps.

With a few hundred Kewsh darts, say ~$20, you can accurately group darts on a target at 90ft ptg.

Flywheel systems seem to have a bad rap. At a past NiC event there were three people with flywheels, two of them fried their motors on fancy integration builds (LOL @ Kentucky) before the first round and I used mine for the remainder of the war.

I'll continue to use Flywheel technology until something else strikes my fancy, but I'm happy with them at the moment.

[JackDC914]

You should probably just tell him to try rolling a flywheel gun at an NIC war and be done with it.

I might just have to.

[Draconis]

Your physics are right, but I think you're underestimating the effects of fishtailing/wobbling. I need to work on my SNAP's barrel because it has a terrible tendency to fire elite darts straight for 25-35 feet before they veer off sharply to one side.

That may just be your darts. Elites just suck that much.

With ~$30 worth of parts you can be averaging 123.7fps.

I can hit that speed with a Mountain Dew and half an hour. But I can only ever fire that blaster /from the hips/.

[ompa]

I can hit that speed with a Mountain Dew and half an hour. But I can only ever fire that blaster /from the hips/.

You ass, I almost spit my drink everywhere when I read that.

Also, I tried filling the heads of the elite darts with silicone... just to see if it would improve the accuracy any. So far there seems to be some minor improvement, but they still suck. Not sure if my filling method is just crappy or that even with the additional weight the distribution of the weight itself is still strange.

[NerfMonkey]

You ass, I almost spit my drink everywhere when I read that.

Also, I tried filling the heads of the elite darts with silicone... just to see if it would improve the accuracy any. So far there seems to be some minor improvement, but they still suck. Not sure if my filling method is just crappy or that even with the additional weight the distribution of the weight itself is still strange.

Holy heck, good to see you back.