21 replies to this topic

[Birch]

So, I have been making slugs for a couple of years now, I started off using washers and now use ball bearings, but these types of darts are not normally allowed at wars. The first washers I got were #8 washers and it was very hard to get a dart without exposed metal, so I switched over to #6 washers. These, albeit not giving much exposed metal, were too light and didn't shoot the distances the #8's. So I in light of this I switched over to these: http://www.mcmaster....6455k74/=razl3l , and no these darts are not glue domes, they have a felt pad over them, just like a slug dart. These give me no exposed metal, good weight, and are safer than washer slugs, due to their lack of exposed metal. So my question is why do people not allow them at wars if they are, in my opinion, safer that traditional slugs?

Addendum, I have no problems with the weight punching through the head of the dart due to the manner in which I constructed my darts. The order of operations goes: burn hole, hotglue, weight, a little hotglue, while glue is still hot, a felt pad. This procedure encases the metal in hotglue, bonding it to the foam, not just letting it sit in the hole in the foam.

Edited by Birch, 03 September 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[He Who Mods]

'Birch', on 29 Mar 2014 - 3:01 PM, said:

So, I have been making slugs for a couple of years now, I started off using washers and now use ball bearings, but these types of darts are not normally allowed at wars. The first washers I got were #8 washers and it was very hard to get a dart without exposed metal, so I switched over to #6 washers. These, albeit not giving much exposed metal, were too light and didn't shoot good distances. So I switched over to these: http://www.mcmaster....6455k74/=razl3l , and no these are not glue domes, they have felt over them. These give me no exposed metal, good weight, and are safer than washer slugs. So my question is why do people not allow them at wars if they are, in my opinion, safer that traditional slugs?

Wow, I have never really thought of that. I think from now on I will make darts this way. The BB in the middle would also make dart making 10000 times easier since you don't need to burn a giant hole in them.

[azrael]

I would think it's easier to center a washer than a ball bearing.

What kind of foam and washer are you using where you have exposed metal? 3/8" OD #6 washers should not be exposed with 1/2" foam.

[charlie156]

I always do my darts with any where from 2-3 copper BB's in the middle, or just one 3/o fishing weight. I find it really easy to just eyeball the center hole, as its not that difficult to do.

[Azrael0987]

Balls are easier to center because even if your hole is slightly off it's still not going to show out the side. They are a lot less wide than a washer, which has to be more or less perfectly centered.

Edited by Azrael0987, 29 March 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[Bchamp22795]

I think I may try this....well at least if it becomes commonly accepted at wars.

'Azrael0987', on 29 Mar 2014 - 5:44 PM, said:

Balls are easier to center because even if your hole is slightly off it's still not going to show out the side. They are a lot less wide than a washer, which has to be more or less perfectly centered.

I think you mean to say that the balls are easier to use without them being exposed. If your hole is bad with either a washer or a ball, you risk the weight being off center. It may actually be more difficult to create a centered hole for the ball if you are using a hot glue gun. With a larger hole (for a washer), you can start slightly off center, then have a lot of room to compensate later. It is also easier to see that your hole is equidistant from the edge of the dart with a larger hole. With a small hole, a slightly off center beginning gives much less space to fix the issue.

I think using these weights may cause more pain since the weight isn't as distributed, but I have a feeling it should be pretty negligible.

In the end, I do agree that this is a competitive alternative to washer made slugs. Until proved otherwise, I wouldn't have a problem with people using them at my wars.

Edited by Bchamp22795, 29 March 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[Doom]

Given similar weights, there is no scientific reason to not allow ball bearings but to allow washers. Many dart safety practices are voodoo, unfortunately, so they don't make sense. These practices are based on unverified ideas about what is safest, not realities about what is safest. I suggest bringing this up with local war organizers if you find it is an issue.

[Birch]

'azrael', on 29 Mar 2014 - 4:37 PM, said:

I would think it's easier to center a washer than a ball bearing.

What kind of foam and washer are you using where you have exposed metal? 3/8" OD #6 washers should not be exposed with 1/2" foam.

Your answer...

'Azrael0987', on 29 Mar 2014 - 5:44 PM, said:

Balls are easier to center because even if your hole is slightly off it's still not going to show out the side. They are a lot less wide than a washer, which has to be more or less perfectly centered.

'Bchamp22795', on 29 Mar 2014 - 6:22 PM, said:

I think I may try this....well at least if it becomes commonly accepted at wars.

I think using these weights may cause more pain since the weight isn't as distributed, but I have a feeling it should be pretty negligible.

In the end, I do agree that this is a competitive alternative to washer made slugs. Until proved otherwise, I wouldn't have a problem with people using them at my wars.

First of all the weight from the ball is distributed evenly through out the felt disk, so the pain is about the same as a traditional slug.

I am also pleased that you, as a war organizer have no problem with these.

'Doom', on 29 Mar 2014 - 6:27 PM, said:

Given similar weights, there is no scientific reason to not allow ball bearings but to allow washers. Many dart safety practices are voodoo, unfortunately, so they don't make sense. These practices are based on unverified ideas about what is safest, not realities about what is safest. I suggest bringing this up with local war organizers if you find it is an issue.

Yeah, I always thought that Kane and the like were just being ridicules with all of their "safe dart" concepts. He was making a non-proven dart to solve a non-existent problem.

Addendum: I think I was a little gratuitous with my comments of Kane the mediocre's "safe" and metal free dart campaign. I think that slugs were already the solution to glue dome(most dangerous type of commonly used dart)safety. I just thought that he was going farther than was necessary, and in the process making nerf blasters less powerful.

Edited by Birch, 29 March 2014 - 06:07 PM.

[Doom]

'Birch', on 29 Mar 2014 - 8:07 PM, said:

Yeah, I always thought that Kane and the like were just being ridicules with all of their "safe dart" concepts. He was making a non-proven dart to solve a non-existent problem.

I wouldn't say that dart safety is a non-existent problem. The issue is that most common "solutions" are too restrictive in some cases and not restrictive enough in others.

I don't recall Kane saying anything unreasonable, though I don't think his metal-free (or more generally, hard-stuff-free) dart concept is necessary. Avoiding hard things is laudable, however. I don't think it'll happen without changes in how darts are manufactured, but incidentally, I bet Kane believes the same as he's working on automated dart making machines.

[soloz1]

I do this:



But that's just me. It adds a bit of weight, but probably less than that of a bearing.

Adding the bearing is probably more efficient than pasting a washer then adding the copper anyway.

[Birch]

'soloz1', on 29 Mar 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

I do this:



But that's just me. It adds a bit of weight, but probably less than that of a bearing.

Adding the bearing is probably more efficient than pasting a washer then adding the copper anyway.

Woh, that is exactly what I used to due to my darts so they weighed enough. It is an easy solution to the weight problem, but doesn't solve the exposed metal conundrum.

[Langley]

I require washers because they are more consistent, not because they are safer. There's no safety-related reason not to allow spherical weights in slug-like darts. Incidentally, I find it easier to make consistent quality slugs with washers.

[jwasko]

I think that washers were used because they are roughly the same diameter of the dart and felt pad, thus making less margin for error: either the washer is centered and the dart flies straight, or they are very obviously not centered and the dart needs to be remade because it probably won't even fit in the barrel. Thus, you get the consistency that Langley likes so much.

I once tried to make slug darts by using a BB, a very small amount of hot glue, and a felt pad...fortunately I tested them before taking them to a war because (when shot out of a powerful blaster) the BB was able to detach itself from the hot glue, punch through the felt pad, and go who knows where.

So, if you are going to try this, I suggest making a (nearly) full hot glue dome and then put a felt pad over top of that. I believe this has been done and proven to be fairly durable and safe.

Edited by jwasko, 30 March 2014 - 06:57 PM.

[Daniel Beaver]

Like Langley said, the washers are customary because they limit the weight to the dart (important, since it levels the playing field against very high-powered blasters), and it is easier for a war organizer to verify. My own reasons for using slugs have never been safety, but always because they are lighter, more consistent, and less painful than glue domes.

[Meaker VI]

'jwasko', on 30 Mar 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

... because (when shot out of a powerful blaster) the BB was able to detach itself from the hot glue, punch through the felt pad, and go who knows where.

I always thought this was one of the main reasons for using washers over bbs/bearings/fishing weights - the washers have more surface area and are less likely to punch through the padding on the dart.

[shmmee]

'Meaker VI', on 31 Mar 2014 - 3:14 PM, said:

I always thought this was one of the main reasons for using washers over bbs/bearings/fishing weights - the washers have more surface area and are less likely to punch through the padding on the dart.

Exactly! My first steffan was weighted with a bb. I test fired it at an oak cabenet pannel. The bb punched right through and still had enough kinetic energy to dent the oak. Oak is a pretty hard, dense wood. I shudder to think what would of happened if I had mass produced them and started shooting them at people.

Birch's washer/bb combo would be a lot safer if you absolutely had to have more weight, but the bb would still concern me as a host. If a washer gets loose mid-flight it has a high surface area and would slow down pretty quickly. BB's are pretty aerodynamic and would fly further.

[Langley]

'shmmee', on 31 Mar 2014 - 5:53 PM, said:

Exactly! My first steffan was weighted with a bb. I test fired it at an oak cabenet pannel. The bb punched right through and still had enough kinetic energy to dent the oak. Oak is a pretty hard, dense wood. I shudder to think what would of happened if I had mass produced them and started shooting them at people.

In the days before 'death domes' many of us used to either flatten the tip of the dart with an ice cube while the glue was still drying, or used a thick glue at a low temperature to put a very slightly domed blob of glue over the whole tip. In either case, most of the tip was covered in glue, leaving a large surface area of glue to impact the target, and a large interface between glue and foam to hold everything together. Newbies would inevitably use a small dab of hotglue, or have their glue slightly recessed into the dart, causing the weight to separate from the dart, and turning their nerf gun into a pellet gun. Even made the right way, often if the dart hit something relatively soft like cardboard, the foam would wedge in place and the weight would keep moving.

[Doom]

'Meaker VI', on 31 Mar 2014 - 3:14 PM, said:

I always thought this was one of the main reasons for using washers over bbs/bearings/fishing weights - the washers have more surface area and are less likely to punch through the padding on the dart.

This is quite a correct point and I should revise my earlier statement because of it.

Has anyone done any dart durability tests? I'm thinking about shooting darts at a set velocity and a set distance at a certain hard target, say brick. I'd like to see some more specific numbers about how often weights break off, etc. I have seen that phenomena in wars, but only after looking at darts on the ground.

[Daniel Beaver]

'Doom', on 31 Mar 2014 - 9:25 PM, said:

Has anyone done any dart durability tests? I'm thinking about shooting darts at a set velocity and a set distance at a certain hard target, say brick. I'd like to see some more specific numbers about how often weights break off, etc. I have seen that phenomena in wars, but only after looking at darts on the ground.

I seem to recall someone doing that, though it was informal. My own observation is that dart durability is almost entirely dependent on build quality. Very good slugs will almost never break when hitting a concrete wall... but most slugs aren't very well-made, and will break very consistently when you shoot them into walls.

[Birch]

I am now starting to get a much clearer picture of the background of the usage of the washer but I seem to have much different opinions and experiences.

A. I don't use washers because of the aforementioned way to get perfect darts, some are perfect but a few are total crap. I prefer to have fewer darts be crappy, and take more time too make them. The ball bearings I use also help making perfect darts because centering a hole in foam is an easier task than centering a washer.

B. I have never had the problem of a weight punching through the felt. Did you guys put hotglue over the weight but before the felt pad?

C. I don't see how washers are easier to regulate. Yes there are fewer options, but it as just as easy to put rules on weight limits in your war outline threads.

[Draconis]

'Daniel Beaver', on 31 Mar 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

I seem to recall someone doing that, though it was informal. My own observation is that dart durability is almost entirely dependent on build quality. Very good slugs will almost never break when hitting a concrete wall... but most slugs aren't very well-made, and will break very consistently when you shoot them into walls.

On a related note, my forays in to Slug-style MEGA/Jumbo darts gas shown that hitting anything hard at an angle is likely enough to break the washer free from the foam. This include concrete sidewalk when range testing. Eight of ten darts would separate on the second shot. My kid wouldn't stand still after the first shot, so I don't have any significant data against soft targets.

'TreeBeard' said

C. I don't see how washers are easier to regulate. Yes there are fewer options, but it as just as easy to put rules on weight limits in your war outline threads.

Having to weigh everyone's darts before a war would be a huge pain.

Edited by Draconis, 31 March 2014 - 05:49 PM.

[makeitgo]

I've presented this style Slug before on this and other forums, along with my other style darts. I was informed that they would not be legal at Apoc (or any other East Coast war). The write up no longer exists in this forum but is up in others.

I believe they are the same bearings (Canadian variant).

In my informal tests, regardless of dart head, punching through card board boxes eventually caused the heads to separate from the foam. However, the bearings that did separate did impact and sometimes punched through the second layer of the cardboard box. The other type dart heads did not seem to have the same affect.

That being said, direct impact against my heavy bag (more similar to the human body than a concrete wall) did not cause any dart head separations by any of my dart types.

But it's the glancing hits, like those off a blaster hit, which are most prevalent here. Similar to cardboard, indirect hits or glancing hits, have the potential of torquing the foam enough to cause separation. Especially at the velocities we can generate at shorter distances.

Washers and other dart head types loose kinetic energy and momentum quickly once separated from the foam but the bearings tend to carry much of their kinetic energy after being separated.

Again, direct hits did not cause separation but glancing hits did appear to be more susceptible to breakages. I cannot give an exact percentage but it was pretty low. I don't believe it carries enough residual energy to actually hurt anyone upon regular impact (after separation) but it is small enough to sneak past some of the openings in some peoples protective eye ware. Which is a consideration for the war host.