25 replies to this topic

[BenFett]

Hey guys, so for Christmas I'm trying to get myself a stryfe so I can start to learn modding for the flywheel blasters, and I'd like to experiment with putting a replacement motor in it. I have looked at nearly all the mod tutorials that i can find, and many recommend the "Pro 180" motors that coop tends to use, but I've also seen a thread on here about the "RM2". I was very interested in the "RM2"s, due to the price difference, but I saw someone post in the comments of one of coop's videos asking how well they work, and he said that he believes they don't perform as well as even the stock motors. I would really appreciate some clarification if you guys don't mind, and I apologize if this has been asked, or is posted somewhere already, I just could not find a comparison of both the motors. Thank you in advance guys.

Edit: (Because I'm out of daily posts)
Thanks for all the help guys, I appreciate it, if anyone has any more tips to do with the stryfe I'd love to hear them!

Edited by BenFett, 15 November 2013 - 04:27 PM.

[azrael]

Hey guys, so for Christmas I'm trying to get myself a stryfe so I can start to learn modding for the flywheel blasters, and I'd like to experiment with putting a replacement motor in it. I have looked at nearly all the mod tutorials that i can find, and many recommend the "Pro 180" motors that coop tends to use, but I've also seen a thread on here about the "RM2". I was very interested in the "RM2"s, due to the price difference, but I saw someone post in the comments of one of coop's videos asking how well they work, and he said that he believes they don't perform as well as even the stock motors. I would really appreciate some clarification if you guys don't mind, and I apologize if this has been asked, or is posted somewhere already, I just could not find a comparison of both the motors. Thank you in advance guys.

RM2s are not that great. The brushes have been see to commonly just get obliterated when overvolted.

You can try just sticking with the stock motor and using better batteries. You can get a very stock look with 3 14500 IMR batteries (and a dummy battery), like eFests, and get very good performance out of them.

[Jaynerf176]

I have worked with both kinds of motors, each has characteristics that make them quite effective, but it is the kind of performance you want that's the deciding factor in which to get. The RM2s are characterized by a higher RPM for the same stock voltage, this is nice because you don't really have to do too much rewiring and you don't have to upgrade the voltage. The thing is, you get what you pay for, these motors, while effective, aren't always the most durable. They fail, especially if you try to go over 9 volts. Also, they can fail if there is a jam while the rev trigger is held down. The only other real downside is that since they draw more power from the same voltage, they tend to eat through AA batteries pretty fast, so if you're going to use them, I'd recommend rechargeables.

On to the pro 180 motors, these are really nice if you want to pump a crap-ton of voltage through your blaster. They can handle a lot of abuse and will last a good long while. The downsides are pretty few, but because the size of the motors is larger than that of the stock, or RM2 motors, you have to do some shell modification. So there is a danger of exposed wiring, and nobody likes to get zapped, so you'll have to be careful or cover up the holes in the shell somehow.

My recommendation would be to start out with the RM2 motors, that way if you mess up, it's no big deal since they're so cheap. Once you get good at soldering things together, and you feel confident in your ability to modify the shell and rewire everything, then you can move up to the Pro 180s.

Also, welcome to NerfHaven!

Edited by Jaynerf176, 15 November 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[BenFett]

My recommendation would be to start out with the RM2 motors, that way if you mess up, it's no big deal since they're so cheap. Once you get good at soldering things together, and you feel confident in your ability to modify the shell and rewire everything, then you can move up to the Pro 180s.

Also, welcome to NerfHaven!

Thanks for the welcome! I myself am pretty confident in my soldering ability 'currently' (Ba dum chh (Oh god that was terrible...)), and i am planning on probably sticking to the stock motors with 3 trustfires and a dummy battery, then moving up to the Pro 180s, I didnt ralize the RM2s have that many issues, and even though they are cheap I'd much rather spend more money for the reliability than for a motor that will last me just a little while.

Also, are the resistor looking things on the motors actually resistors? On one of the videos i watched someone was saying how they weren't actually resistors and removing them wont make a huge difference, while on most other tutorials everyone just removes them without second thought.

[Jaynerf176]

Thanks for the welcome! I myself am pretty confident in my soldering ability 'currently' (Ba dum chh (Oh god that was terrible...)), and i am planning on probably sticking to the stock motors with 3 trustfires and a dummy battery, then moving up to the Pro 180s, I didnt ralize the RM2s have that many issues, and even though they are cheap I'd much rather spend more money for the reliability than for a motor that will last me just a little while.

Also, are the resistor looking things on the motors actually resistors? On one of the videos i watched someone was saying how they weren't actually resistors and removing them wont make a huge difference, while on most other tutorials everyone just removes them without second thought.

I left the resisters on when I installed them. I don't think it makes too much of a difference, but I didn't want to mess anything up on the motors.

[Jaynerf176]

There are 'thermistors-' they cut out with heat. Remove them.

There's also one in the regular stryfe wiring, so take that out as well.

[TheWiredDJ]

There are 'thermistors-' they cut out with heat. Remove them.

The pcbs that are physically attached to the motors in a Stryfe are just inductant filters (to channel out RF interference to pass FCC interference regs). You can just rip those off, but those shouldn't physically have an impact on the performance of your DC circuit. The thermister however, is the yellow component on the pcb at the back of the stryfe connected to the battery terminal. That needs to go for modification purposes.

[azrael]

FPS tests have proven that simple overvolting of the stock motors gives much better performance than replacing the stock motors with RM2s and running at stock voltage. As long as you use good batteries, like eFest 14500 cells (not Trustfires).

I consider battery replacement and thermister removal to be MUCH easier than motor replacement...


If you want better performance, definitely do IMR instead of Trustfire. Trustfires do not have the current supply capability that we want for this application. They have relatively low discharge rates compared to other Lithium battery types. IMRs are also safer.

Edited by azrael, 16 November 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[BenFett]

FPS tests have proven that simple overvolting of the stock motors gives much better performance than replacing the stock motors with RM2s and running at stock voltage. As long as you use good batteries, like eFest 14500 cells (not Trustfires).

I consider battery replacement and thermister removal to be MUCH easier than motor replacement...


If you want better performance, definitely do IMR instead of Trustfire. Trustfires do not have the current supply capability that we want for this application. They have relatively low discharge rates compared to other Lithium battery types. IMRs are also safer.

Oh, thanks, I thought trustfires were much better than that, they seem like the standard battery to purchase from tutorials and such that i have watched, I'll definitely get those batteries instead, do you have a charger recommendation? I was just going with the trustfire brand charger but i figure the new batteries might be slightly different.

Also, I'm currently nearing the end of a modification project on a firestrike, so hope you guys give me some feedback when I post that, probably tomorrow or the next day.

[azrael]

A Trustfire charger will work just fine, I use one with my eFests. One great thing about IMRs is that they can't be overcharged.


Trustfires are just common because it was what people were initially doing. Plus, they're cheap. But because of their construction, there are many problems with trying to use them with a high current demand.
There are many alternatives which will provide the current motors demand when overvolted, IMRs, LiFEPO4, LiPo, NiCd, etc...

[Ivan S]

A Trustfire charger will work just fine, I use one with my eFests. One great thing about IMRs is that they can't be overcharged.


Trustfires are just common because it was what people were initially doing. Plus, they're cheap. But because of their construction, there are many problems with trying to use them with a high current demand.
There are many alternatives which will provide the current motors demand when overvolted, IMRs, LiFEPO4, LiPo, NiCd, etc...

Since you can get three 18650 trustfires(3-4A max discharge) for the price of an 18650 IMR(10A max), would it be reasonable to use three trustfires in parallel for the same current as an IMR but three times the capacity?
It would probably be impractical in a stryfe since you'd end up with 6 or 9 batteries, but I'm thinking of a homemade.

Edited by Ivan S, 17 November 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[Coop]

From my experience, I’d suggest trying out the Xtreme 180’s running on a lipo battery to get the best performance. As it’s been stated, Trustfires are not the best battery option, they’re just really easy to use and pretty low cost. However, the performance gains from the Xtreme 180 motors aren’t optimized running on Trustfires because those motors can safely use more current than the Trustfires can supply. So, if you’re limited to Trustfires, it may not be worth the tiny gain from the Xtreme 180’s considering they’re $30 after shipping. If you can buy a battery that can supply adequate current (such as a lipo), I’d definitely recommend spending the $30 on the motors.

However, there is a plateau effect with flywheels prior to the limitations we face with the dart aerodynamics. After you get the motors spinning fast enough with enough torque, you will experience dart slipping (when the flywheel surface can’t grip the dart at speed and it slips, wasting some of its energy). Because of this, I suggest looking into ways to enhance the grip of the flywheels if you go as far to use Xtreme 180’s + lipo. It’s like running a 1,000hp car on street tires - tons of wasted power since the tires (flywheels) don’t even know what to do with the power.

tl;dr
Xtreme 180’s + lipo = sex
Trustfires + stock motors = solid performance considering the cost

[azrael]

Since you can get three 18650 trustfires(3-4A max discharge) for the price of an 18650 IMR(10A max), would it be reasonable to use three trustfires in parallel for the same current as an IMR but three times the capacity?
It would probably be impractical in a stryfe since you'd end up with 6 or 9 batteries, but I'm thinking of a homemade.

Depends on motors. Stock motors, those trustfires might be okay. Any sort of replacements, I would recommend a better battery chemistry.
Their current discharge rate will not increase, FYI, but their mAH will add up.

180 motors can pull A LOT of current, I think someone said 60A stall current? I forget. That's WELL past the current discharge rate of a Trustfire, thus you're not really getting any rev up benefits, and may even damage the battery.

There is definitely a limit to the capabilities of flywheels, as I haven't been able to hit significantly over 120 fps without either melting darts or melting flywheels lols.

[Ivan S]

Their current discharge rate will not increase, FYI, but their mAH will add up.

Sorry, I don't quite understand? Doesn't connecting batteries in parallel compound their current discharge? http://electronics.h...ch/battery6.htm (first paragraph).

[azrael]

Sorry, I don't quite understand? Doesn't connecting batteries in parallel compound their current discharge? http://electronics.h...ch/battery6.htm (first paragraph).

Hmmm...that only talks about current supply. We are talking about discharge rate. The discharge rate remains the same.

But I thought about the math, and I was wrong, it does increase max discharge (not discharge rate).

For example, if both cells have 1000mAH, and 10C discharge rate, that means they have 10A max discharge, because 10C * 1AH = 10A. So if you connect them in parallel, you have a 2000mAH supply, but still 10C discharge rate. But 10C * 2AH = 20A max discharge.

So yes, that would work, but most people want overvolting, so you would have a pretty large pack to put 3 paralleled 18650s in series with 3 more paralleled in series with 3 more paralleled lol.

[BenFett]

Oh man, I have no idea what to use now, haha, so if I'm going to start with just the stock motors and not buy the pro 180s, should I use the efests if im willing to spend the money? Also, since the voltage on the efests is a lot more, should I just use one or two?

I like the idea of a lipo if im adding the motors, though thats in a realm I've never gotten into, and I'm not sure what changes (If any) I'd need to do to make the gun work correctly.

(excuse my idiocy on this topic guys, this is not something I've ever gotten into.)

[azrael]

I believe commonly do two cell systems (2s) on Stryfe motors with no issue. I've done testing with 3s using Trustfires.

If you find 2s is high enough performance, I would rewire the battery box to have the two in parallel, for increased battery life.

LiPo is great but not necessary in your application yet, staying with stock.

[Ivan S]

Hmmm...that only talks about current supply. We are talking about discharge rate. The discharge rate remains the same.

But I thought about the math, and I was wrong, it does increase max discharge (not discharge rate).

For example, if both cells have 1000mAH, and 10C discharge rate, that means they have 10A max discharge, because 10C * 1AH = 10A. So if you connect them in parallel, you have a 2000mAH supply, but still 10C discharge rate. But 10C * 2AH = 20A max discharge.

So yes, that would work, but most people want overvolting, so you would have a pretty large pack to put 3 paralleled 18650s in series with 3 more paralleled in series with 3 more paralleled lol.

I see, thanks for the answer. Looking into it I don't think my idea is so great though, because I was looking at Panasonic IMRs. Efest IMRs are both cheaper($8 ea) and much higher discharge(30A). The OP won't need current that high if he has stock motors, but for high current applications efests sound much better than trustfires

[azrael]

For 18650s, right? I got a pair of 14500 eFest IMRs for 10 bucks or something. 4 of those, paralleled for 8.4V should plenty of current supply and discharge and keep a stock look.

Stryfes with stock motors on a 3s system get to average 110 fps, which is pretty close to the upper limits of flywheel performance:
https://docs.google....RWc&output=html

[BenFett]

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it, hopefully my project will turn out at least decent, haha, we'll find out sometime after Christmas I guess.

[Sam-underscore]

For 18650s, right? I got a pair of 14500 eFest IMRs for 10 bucks or something. 4 of those, paralleled for 8.4V should plenty of current supply and discharge and keep a stock look.

Stryfes with stock motors on a 3s system get to average 110 fps, which is pretty close to the upper limits of flywheel performance:
https://docs.google....RWc&output=html

Sorry to post in a thread that's a few weeks old, but I feel that it's better to post than PM so others can see for future reference.So Azrael, are the eFests actually worth the ~$20(3 of them +shipping)? Also, what are the actual performance benefits over ultrafires? And is this a trustable link/website to purchase them? https://www.myvapors...145007&CartID=1
Thank you for the help in advance. I just want to get a better feel of what I'm buying
-Sam_
P.S. I'll be using them in a Rapidstrike if that makes any difference. Thanks again!

Edited by Sam-underscore, 28 November 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[azrael]

Sorry to post in a thread that's a few weeks old, but I feel that it's better to post than PM so others can see for future reference.So Azrael, are the eFests actually worth the ~$20(3 of them +shipping)? Also, what are the actual performance benefits over ultrafires? And is this a trustable link/website to purchase them? https://www.myvapors...145007&CartID=1
Thank you for the help in advance. I just want to get a better feel of what I'm buying
-Sam_
P.S. I'll be using them in a Rapidstrike if that makes any difference. Thanks again!

I've never used that site, so I dunno. I just got them off eBay. About the same price though.

The performance difference is that they have a significantly greater max current discharge over Trustfires. Why is this important? Because when we overvolt, the motors ask for more current, especially when revving up. When we overvolt, especially with replacement motors, this stall current, named as such because it's the amount of current the motor needs to break out of a stalled or stopped state, exceeds the current supply limitations of Trustfires. If the motors get the power they want, they spend less time revving up, and thus have better recovery time.

In a Rapidstrike, you would probably just want to go with a 2s system, unless you plan to drop the voltage going to the pusher motor with diodes. Otherwise, I believe the pusher motor starts pushing faster than the blaster can fire darts.
I would probably buy 4 of them, and wire them so two pairs of eFests are in parallel, for a total of 8.4V.

[Sam-underscore]

In a Rapidstrike, you would probably just want to go with a 2s system, unless you plan to drop the voltage going to the pusher motor with diodes. Otherwise, I believe the pusher motor starts pushing faster than the blaster can fire darts.
I would probably buy 4 of them, and wire them so two pairs of eFests are in parallel, for a total of 8.4V.

So would going with 2 get better/similar performance than/to 3 ultrafires? If my somewhat limited knowledge of circuitry serves me right, wiring them in parallel would mean the same voltage as 2, but twice the battery life? What diode would serve this purpose? Or could I just hook up like a 9volt battery to the pusher mech and just have three eFests going to the flywheels? I'm trying my best to maintain the stock battery tray and just use converters, but this idea is beginning to grow on me. Thanks for all the help!!

-Sam_

[azrael]

So would going with 2 get better/similar performance than/to 3 ultrafires? If my somewhat limited knowledge of circuitry serves me right, wiring them in parallel would mean the same voltage as 2, but twice the battery life? What diode would serve this purpose? Or could I just hook up like a 9volt battery to the pusher mech and just have three eFests going to the flywheels? I'm trying my best to maintain the stock battery tray and just use converters, but this idea is beginning to grow on me. Thanks for all the help!!

-Sam_

Did you read the post? Haha, I already said what would be different. Overvolting is not just about the voltage, motors need current too. Trustfires can't supply that kind of current.
And no, parallel means same voltage, more current supply and higher discharge rate.
Overall RPM with a 3s is certainly higher than a 2s, but the difference is in recovery time, as in, how it takes the motors to spin back up to full speed after shooting a dart. With a choked current supply, motors will have less torque and take longer to spin up.

9v batteries are terrible, teribble current supply and discharge, just use diodes to drop it down. There was another topic here somewhere about this. Something from the 1N5400 diode series would be perfect. Just put a couple of the diodes in series, and then place them in between the pusher motor and battery.

Edited by azrael, 29 November 2013 - 12:24 PM.