25 replies to this topic

[Asdf12345]

So this post might not be post worthy but anyway let get in to it. I have found these dome heads that are adhesive back. They are like the no slip rubber dome that go on kichen tools and they prevent things from moving. They shoot the same range as hot glue domes. But I don't really know if you can find the because I found them at a mans house and he said take them

[Donquixote]

Could you take a picture? Even a shitty cell-phone pic would be nice.

[Kronos Nerf Mods]

I have some of those on my cabinets. I was thinking of trying them as dart heads, but I think they are probably more expensive than hot glue. If you do find any for sale, and they do turn out cheaper, then I may have to try them out.

[snickers]

The durometer of them is way too hard for our use. Ryan did some testing with these a while back. There are just too many things wrong with them.

[Asdf12345]

I have the nh app and I don't really know how to get pics on. But if you have seen the felt bumpers at lowes (they are 3/8s) they look just like that but there silicone domes

[Asdf12345]

[img]http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com.au/viewitem?itemId=121099878607

USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST

Edited by Langley, 26 July 2013 - 08:35 AM.
Double Posting, getting the tags wrong, generally not caring about your post quality after repeated warnings.

[Draconis]

You'll find that these are still substantially more expensive than making your own. Also, by casting our own domes, we have the ability to add custom colors and even glow-in-the-dark pigments.

[azrael]

The durometer of them is way too hard for our use. Ryan did some testing with these a while back. There are just too many things wrong with them.

What do you think is an optimal durometer? I have seen stuff like this on McMaster, was thinking about checking it out.

[Carbon]

What do you think is an optimal durometer? I have seen stuff like this on McMaster, was thinking about checking it out.

As low as possible...and considering what's been found at McMaster, it's really not low enough. A durometer of ~20 is like a rubber band rubber, which doesn't have the compressability of a felt disk. (Personal opinion: I'm not a fan of silicone domes. They hurt.)

[Draconis]

(Personal opinion: I'm not a fan of silicone domes. They hurt.)

Carbon has been afflicted with thin old man skin, causing him to bruise like the peach that he is.

[KaneTheMediocre]

As low as possible...and considering what's been found at McMaster, it's really not low enough. A durometer of ~20 is like a rubber band rubber, which doesn't have the compressability of a felt disk. (Personal opinion: I'm not a fan of silicone domes. They hurt.)

I've had varied accounts of the pain factor between silicone domes and slugs. I would expect them to hurt somewhat more than an ideal slug hit of equal energy because the round tip actually produces an effective KED greater than the diameter alone would suggest. After that is taken into account, it's probably a wash between the felt not absorbing enough of the energy before it bottoms out on a washer and the rubber domes not being soft enough.

Also the drastically reduced drag means that long range shots carry a greater percentage of the muzzle energy compared to slugs, so it feels more like EVERY shot was from 10 ft away. This I like, but I do wish that shots from 10 ft away hurt less.

Silicone caulk based darts will however be softer (20-30 shore A, guesstimated by comparison to reference samples that went down to 40) than any prefabricated rubber dome I have seen for sale ANYWHERE. I have looked very hard, and I would love to be wrong about this. The rubber that Nerf uses in it's darts is probably harder than the rubber we use, but the vented hollow dome is an awesome durable structure for gradually absorbing impact energy. I'm not l337 enough to do that unfortunately.

Edited by KaneTheMediocre, 30 July 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[DartSlinger]

I've had varied accounts of the pain factor between silicone domes and slugs. I would expect them to hurt somewhat more than an ideal slug hit of equal energy because the round tip actually produces an effective KED greater than the diameter alone would suggest. After that is taken into account, it's probably a wash between the felt not absorbing enough of the energy before it bottoms out on a washer and the rubber domes not being soft enough.

Also the drastically reduced drag means that long range shots carry a greater percentage of the muzzle energy compared to slugs, so it feels more like EVERY shot was from 10 ft away. This I like, but I do wish that shots from 10 ft away hurt less.

So, if silicone domes hurt more than slugs do, why do you push silicone domes, but ban slugs? I've heard your ploy about how this is the magical land of Nerf, and somehow metal washers might magically come out of slugs and begin wreaking carnage on the field. But has the metal washer in a slug ever actually hurt anyone.

[shmmee]

So, if silicone domes hurt more than slugs do, why do you push silicone domes, but ban slugs? I've heard your ploy about how this is the magical land of Nerf, and somehow metal washers might magically come out of slugs and begin wreaking carnage on the field. But has the metal washer in a slug ever actually hurt anyone.

I can't answer for Kane, or bare silicone domes but a felt padded silicone tip hurts less than both a slug and a bare silicone dome in my own biased opinion. I'll have to do some welt comparison testing at S.L.A.N.G this Saturday for some un-objective results. As per "have they ever actually hurt anyone"? I can't cite specific occurrences against people, but I killed a house mouse a week or two ago with a slug and my RSCB'd panther. It took two shots - the first one stunned it. We still have more of the critters wreaking havoc in the kitchen. Next time I go hunting, I'll load gumdrops just to see what happens.

My argument for metal free darts stems from the removal of the potential for injury. If a silicone head comes loose, you have a squishy silicone head and a piece of foam. If a slug head comes loose... well we've all heard the rest of that conversation.

Edited by shmmee, 31 July 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[DartSlinger]

My argument for metal free darts stems from the removal of the potential for injury. If a silicone head comes loose, you have a squishy silicone head and a piece of foam. If a slug head comes loose... well we've all heard the rest of that conversation.

But how would a slug head ever come loose? The strains which act on slugs are all compressive, not tensile.

[mysterio]

But how would a slug head ever come loose? The strains which act on slugs are all compressive, not tensile.

The reason why stefans work is the extremely forwards center of mass, and as a result, when hitting objects they can rip the foam and dislodge a whole head.

That's assuming well-made slugs.

Poorly made slugs will fall apart in dry weather, heat, usage, etc. due to either bad hot glue releasing the washer, or felt pads coming loose.

Edit: Case in point

Edited by mysterio, 31 July 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[shmmee]

That could also potentially happen before flight if the felt caught on a poorly reamed barrel - not saying I've seen that either, I'm just saying there might be several culprits for head separation, some could result in a free flying head.

[Langley]

I've never been hit by a detached washer (or at least I didn't notice it if I have). I've been hit with BBs, fishing weights, and slingshot ammo that has broken loose from dart tips, but never washers. As far as I can tell, as long as you don't load a dart with the washer hanging on by a thread, the washers only ever come off on impact with a hard target like a tree or wall. They rarely if ever come off while flying through the air. The use of #6 washers with McMaster felt pads and Ryan's improved method of making slugs with the washer recessed into the foam makes it almost impossible to be hit with metal directly.

I've done a pretty decent amount of nerfing with both types of ammo, and I've seen people draw blood with hot glue domes and badly made BB/fishing weight darts. I have never seen anything worse than a welt from a slug, and welts are rare at anything farther than point blank range. This is all anecdotal, but I think this is a fairly common experience.

[Daniel Beaver]

I've never been hit by a detached washer (or at least I didn't notice it if I have). I've been hit with BBs, fishing weights, and slingshot ammo that has broken loose from dart tips, but never washers. As far as I can tell, as long as you don't load a dart with the washer hanging on by a thread, the washers only ever come off on impact with a hard target like a tree or wall. They rarely if ever come off while flying through the air. The use of #6 washers with McMaster felt pads and Ryan's improved method of making slugs with the washer recessed into the foam makes it almost impossible to be hit with metal directly.

I've done a pretty decent amount of nerfing with both types of ammo, and I've seen people draw blood with hot glue domes and badly made BB/fishing weight darts. I have never seen anything worse than a welt from a slug, and welts are rare at anything farther than point blank range. This is all anecdotal, but I think this is a fairly common experience.

Rock on. There's lots of FUD going around with regards to slug darts.

[DX-Robert]

For what it's worth, the only time I've had blood drawn was from the side of an exposed washer slug that caught me on the finger at an angle. Granted, such a scenario is incredibly unlikely to be repeated, and the mark is just a tiny slit instead of a large circle. However, it is permanent, while every dome welt I've ever taken was only temporary. Metal balls bruise, metal washers slice.

This is why I'm more concerned about the exposed rims of slugs than the heads coming off. I've never seen a head come off mid-flight. In theory, everyone reads Ryan's improved slug-smithing thread and, in theory, our wars ban shit slugs. In practice, up to half the darts present have metal showing all the way around. Some of this is from #8 washers being used on foam too narrow for #8s. I don't think we should even use #8s anymore for micros, as they show metal even with my fat log home foam. The rest is from people not caring or people not knowing.

Also worth noting is that slugs made with low temp glue will fall apart from normal impacts, the hold is poor.

As posted on NMW, I liked slingshot domes better for a variety of reasons. They were cheaper, easier to make well, faster to produce, and more accurate. But, I know a lot of newer players don't want to get hit with domes, and they are our future. We also have more powerful primaries now. Those things would need to change for domes to make a comeback.

And I don't think that silicone domes are ready to be used as a standard dart. Making darts is my least favorite nerf activity, so anything that makes that process take even longer and be even more quirky is not a step forward in my book. Also, hoppers...

[mysterio]

I've never been hit by a detached washer (or at least I didn't notice it if I have). I've been hit with BBs, fishing weights, and slingshot ammo that has broken loose from dart tips, but never washers. As far as I can tell, as long as you don't load a dart with the washer hanging on by a thread, the washers only ever come off on impact with a hard target like a tree or wall. They rarely if ever come off while flying through the air. The use of #6 washers with McMaster felt pads and Ryan's improved method of making slugs with the washer recessed into the foam makes it almost impossible to be hit with metal directly.

I've done a pretty decent amount of nerfing with both types of ammo, and I've seen people draw blood with hot glue domes and badly made BB/fishing weight darts. I have never seen anything worse than a welt from a slug, and welts are rare at anything farther than point blank range. This is all anecdotal, but I think this is a fairly common experience.

Rock on. There's lots of FUD going around with regards to slug darts.

I hope no one is saying well-made slugs arent safe, because all the ones I've seen from east coasters have been pretty rockin. It's just the people who make them with #8 washers and thin grey foam while using craft foam pads that cause the mentioned welts and slices, as Duxburian said.

[Carbon]

I've had varied accounts of the pain factor between silicone domes and slugs. I would expect them to hurt somewhat more than an ideal slug hit of equal energy because the round tip actually produces an effective KED greater than the diameter alone would suggest. After that is taken into account, it's probably a wash between the felt not absorbing enough of the energy before it bottoms out on a washer and the rubber domes not being soft enough.

I think you're underestimating the value of a few millimeters of compression, combined with four times the surface area on impact. I did some measuring, and a slug felt pad will compress two or three millimeters quite easily. This actually gets better as the dart gets used, because the felt pad will get frizzier. Impact is also spread out across the full half inch of diameter, as well as reduced muzzle velocity from reduced aerodynamics.

Compare this to a silicone tip: compressability is far less than felt (maybe a millimeter), plus the entire impact is concentrated on an area maybe 25% the size. The result? I've gotten welts and bruises this year the likes of which I haven't seen since glue domes were banned. (Side note: craft foam darts suck for pretty much the same reasons).

Carbon has been afflicted with thin old man skin, causing him to bruise like the peach that he is.

I'm also juicy and delicious, and don't you fuckin' forget it.

Edited by Carbon, 01 August 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[KaneTheMediocre]

I've never been hit by a detached washer (or at least I didn't notice it if I have). I've been hit with BBs, fishing weights, and slingshot ammo that has broken loose from dart tips, but never washers. As far as I can tell, as long as you don't load a dart with the washer hanging on by a thread, the washers only ever come off on impact with a hard target like a tree or wall. They rarely if ever come off while flying through the air. The use of #6 washers with McMaster felt pads and Ryan's improved method of making slugs with the washer recessed into the foam makes it almost impossible to be hit with metal directly.

I've done a pretty decent amount of nerfing with both types of ammo, and I've seen people draw blood with hot glue domes and badly made BB/fishing weight darts. I have never seen anything worse than a welt from a slug, and welts are rare at anything farther than point blank range. This is all anecdotal, but I think this is a fairly common experience.

I have shared most of your experiences, although I have seen some scrapes and exceptionally ugly welts from damaged slugs, badly made slugs, overpowered blasters, or otherwise non-ideal strikes. The method of using #6 zinc-plated washers and recessing them into the foam (which is actually my method, published by Ryan at the request of NH admins at the time. It originally happened during my 9 month account approval period) probably helps with the scrapes, but I don't think it's relevant to detachment. The issue at hand with potential disconnection is the use of badly made slugs. Even with a reasonably well intentioned attempt at making slugs can occasionally go bad when you have to make hundreds or thousands of them, and the number of different people making them doesn't help. And if you pick up and use hundreds of darts over the course of a war, it's not hard to miss a damaged dart once in a while.

Also, Ryan and I investigated the effects of loading slugs backwards back in our HAMP kick (as loading speed was very important), and we determined that they reliably turn around in the air in about 3 feet (The distance is amazingly consistent, under the right lighting you can see that all of the darts take almost exactly the same path as they turn around). This is GREAT for being hit at farther than 3 feet, but at 1.5 feet you'll get hit with the edge of a washer at the maximum velocity achieved by the blaster.

The take-home message, and the main objective of most safety oriented new darts, is not to improve the AVERAGE hit, but to improve the WORST hit.

I think you're underestimating the value of a few millimeters of compression, combined with four times the surface area on impact. I did some measuring, and a slug felt pad will compress two or three millimeters quite easily. This actually gets better as the dart gets used, because the felt pad will get frizzier. Impact is also spread out across the full half inch of diameter, as well as reduced muzzle velocity from reduced aerodynamics.

Compare this to a silicone tip: compressability is far less than felt (maybe a millimeter), plus the entire impact is concentrated on an area maybe 25% the size. The result? I've gotten welts and bruises this year the likes of which I haven't seen since glue domes were banned. (Side note: craft foam darts suck for pretty much the same reasons).


I'm also juicy and delicious, and don't you fuckin' forget it.

Aerodynamics don't impact the muzzle velocity. Only the velocity at longer ranges. As such, the people who stay 100 ft away are feeling closer to the same impacts as the people who get in close. The aerodynamics also help reduce the amount of energy needed to push the dart 100'. I can't promise that all dome users will have the moral fiber to power down their blasters from what used to be needed with slugs, but we have to start somewhere.

No one's questioning the compressibility of the felt pad--That's actually the problem. If the weight of the dart doesn't slow to a stop prior to the felt pad reaching full compression, then it's equivalent to getting hit with a washer at whatever speed is left when the felt is fully compressed.

So, if the blaster is shooting slugs at a low enough energy, the felt will do a FANTASTIC job of slowing the impact, but any energy past a certain threshold hits all at once after the compression.

We had a war almost exclusively with silicone domes a couple weeks ago, and a few people actually commented that the rubber domes hurt LESS than slugs. I did notice a distinct lack of welts and bruises or painful hits, but until other people started saying they hurt less, I assumed it was just a coincidence. Now, I'm much less confident that silicone domes are more painful, and I remain certain that they are safer and more durable.

Edited by KaneTheMediocre, 01 August 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Carbon]

I can see what you mean about the relative energy being a wash between felt pad compression and impact. The pain issue is a subjective thing at this point, based on experience. Or maybe I have old man peach skin.

We had a war almost exclusively with silicone domes a couple weeks ago, and a few people actually commented that the rubber domes hurt LESS than slugs. I did notice a distinct lack of welts and bruises or painful hits, but until other people started saying they hurt less, I assumed it was just a coincidence. Now, I'm much less confident that silicone domes are more painful, and I remain certain that they are safer and more durable.

That's promising. I'm hoping to get to one of your wars that uses the domes a lot more extensively, so I can get a better feel for them (so to speak). Personally, I think I like the idea of AMIORS a lot more (partly because of that longer range velocity dropoff).

[azrael]

The eraser head darts I made worked pretty well at Armageddon, very soft tips compared to hot glue. I felt some silicon domes, the non cornstarch ones that mysterio made were pretty soft, I didn't mind them at all. The ones that hurt were some old poorly made hot glue domes, and some old slugs made with #8 washers, that were in the community dart bin.

I couldn't get AMIORs to work well in my PETG BBBB, but I'm told that's normal?

[mysterio]

The eraser head darts I made worked pretty well at Armageddon, very soft tips compared to hot glue. I felt some silicon domes, the non cornstarch ones that mysterio made were pretty soft, I didn't mind them at all. The ones that hurt were some old poorly made hot glue domes, and some old slugs made with #8 washers, that were in the community dart bin.

I couldn't get AMIORs to work well in my PETG BBBB, but I'm told that's normal?

Oh, those domes were Kane's, ended up in my dart bag probably. My domes have a...noticeable amount of cornstarch in them.