32 replies to this topic

[KaneTheMediocre]

I'm assuming this putty stuff isn't dense enough to use as a weight under a felt bumper? Would it be possible to like, burn a hole like usual and coil it under the bumper? I hate side wrapped dart setups (remember zeros?), they rarely seem to work out.

AMIORS are the latest development in my ongoing quest to have safe, hopperable, darts. AMIORS contain no metal, and in fact no rigid components. The weight is made from a nonhardening adhesive putty intended for use in weatherstripping, and a self-adhesive felt pad is used to provide a soft and slippery surface to improve hopper feed.

Props to Ryan McNumbers for cutting and drilling about 3/4 of all the blanks I've filled in my experiments with safer darts.

Parts can be found at McMaster
Felt Pads: MC # 8771K12 (green), 8771K22 (white)
Putty: MC # 9408T14, 9408T17


So, get some non-hardening, adhesive putty:



Cut a short length of foam (30mm shown), and drill a centered hole 1/4" diameter, 3/8" deep. The exact dimensions are not critical, and there are a wide variety of ways one can make such holes. My most recent technique is this jig:


My most recent technique is this jig, which is a 1/2" thread x 1/2" socket coupler with a piece of partly bored out sch80 x 1/2" PVC in it (the wide bore is for clearance). The piece of sch80 x 1/2" PVC is exceptionally loose, so I inserted some 17/32" brass for a tighter, more accurate fit. The 1/2" pipe thread imperfectly mates with the dremel thread (Mine is a model 395, pictured is Ryan's model 4000--The jig fits on both, so presumably they are the same thread). Inside the dremel is a 1/4" round tipped sanding bit, which at high speed makes very nice holes without grabbing the foam. To get well centered holes it's necessary to push, bend, twist, etc on the jig until you get it right.



After making this, I did recall seeing something similar, so I'm not sure that I actually invented this trick. I was pretty much the last person on earth to figure out that dremels are good for drilling holes in foam.

--

Pull off a lump of putty, and roll it into a size and shape that approximately fits your hole.


Mash the putty in the hole. Feel free to tear off or add putty to fill the hole, but the latter process is much easier. The hole should be tightly packed, but not so much as to threaten to tear the foam or severely deform it.


Apply a felt disc to the top of the dart. The adhesive should initially stick to both the foam and the putty.




And you're done!

These seem reasonably durable compared to slugs, but not so durable as their rubberized cousins, the VANS. Since the putty is not elastic, these are much less likely to survive being stepped on or otherwise crushed. However, many crushed darts will be recoverable by squishing the dart in the perpendicular direction to the crush, creating an ugly but fireable dart.

At the only war these have been used in, ~600 were used, with about a dozen known breakages. They fired reliably from conventionally hoppered springers, albeit with a bit less range and accuracy than a slug. Hoppered HAMPS don't work well with these darts, which is unfortunate and baffling, but not a dealbreaker to most nerfers.

edit:
Hoppered loose barrels don't work well with AMIORS. I initially and incorrectly connected this to HAMPS, but tight-barreled HAMPs work and loose barreled everything doesn't work.

Edited by KaneTheMediocre, 15 September 2013 - 11:23 PM.

[Phoenix66]

I personally like the silicone darts better. I don't mean to bash this design of dart, but the silicone darts Snickers sent me I was very happy with, and you can simply dip your wye in cornstarch between rounds to keep feeding issues down. (Rather than coating your darts and clothes in it)
These seem reliable, but the drag from the felt pad in the barrel is high, considering the silicone domes have no drag, and seem a little easier to make.
Just my opinion on these, I don't mean to discourage people from making these darts. They are safer than slugs, the difference is unimaginable unless you actually hold these darts in your hand.

[therealnerfjunkies]

I was actually thinking about this today. The only difference was that I would have used loctite fun-tak (mounting putty), I would just burn the hole in the dart, similar to how slugs are made, and I would have glued on the felt tip. Good job, Kane. Do you think that fun-tak mounting putty would work? Also, are you bringing these to YANO?

Edited by therealnerfjunkies, 16 November 2012 - 11:26 PM.

[Langley]

Thread Pinned

At the only war these have been used in, ~600 were used, with about a dozen known breakages.

This seems about comparable to average slugs, if not the particularly well made slugs that I've seen in your area. What sort of failures are you experiencing? Lost felt pads?

Do the heads deform much when they hit a hard target? I would imagine that the putty might cause the dart to flare out or swell over time after getting mashed into trees, walls, or people, but I guess it could be reshaped easily enough.

Any testing in cold weather yet? I would anticipate that they might be more durable than many other darts in the cold, but then they might not satisfy your softness requirements if it is cold enough to make a difference.

Have you tried covering the tip of the dart in putty and attaching a non-adhesive felt pad?

[The Nerfaholic]

I hope I'm not over stepping any bounds here, but could we get a weight of these? Also how much of the putty do you use/how many could you make? I'm just wondering how these compare to slugs in terms of cost and weight.

[Ryan201821]

I'll answer some of these questions for Kane. These darts have limited testing so a lot of these answers are just educated guesses...Kane can elaborate more if he wants.

I was actually thinking about this today. The only difference was that I would have us loctite fun-tak (mounting putty), I would just burn the hole in the dart, similar to how slugs are made, and I would have glued on the felt tip. Good job, Kane. Do you think that fun-tak mounting putty would work? Also, are you bringing these to YANO?

Ticky-tack or fun-tack should work fine. It's more or less the same stuff we're using, but just more expensive. Hopefully we'll have about 2000+ of these for Yano.

This seems about comparable to average slugs, if not the particularly well made slugs that I've seen in your area. What sort of failures are you experiencing? Lost felt pads?

Do the heads deform much when they hit a hard target? I would imagine that the putty might cause the dart to flare out or swell over time after getting mashed into trees, walls, or people, but I guess it could be reshaped easily enough.

Any testing in cold weather yet? I would anticipate that they might be more durable than many other darts in the cold, but then they might not satisfy your softness requirements if it is cold enough to make a difference.

Have you tried covering the tip of the dart in putty and attaching a non-adhesive felt pad?

The only failure we've noticed is the dart losing it's felt pad. We've yet to experience the putty actually falling out of the dart.

The darts definitely will deform if fired at close range at hard targets. We first tried shooting them point blank, head on at a wood board, and they seemed to hold up for the most part. We started noticing darts to fail when we started shooting them at an angle, hitting the wood board, and then into concrete. They seem really easy to reshape into place, and are still serviceable darts as long as the felt pad stays attached.

At the war we used these at it was in 40s all day, and they didn't seem to harden in the cold weather. If it were even colder, this might change, but I think the putty will still end up staying soft.

I've tried covering the tip almost completely in putty and I'm not sure if this changes the durability of the dart. The felt pad seems to stick much better to the putty instead of the foam, so I could see this improving the durability of the dart. However, if you do have too much putty, the felt pad will probably fall off easier. I found at least one example of this at the war, where I had put a lot of extra putty on the top, and I found it without a felt pad.

Again, these need a bit more testing to draw any real conclusion. And again, testing darts is the worst thing ever so I will probably just find out as I go along. Next war we plan on using these in will happen next month, and we'll have a larger sample size to test from.

I hope I'm not over stepping any bounds here, but could we get a weight of these? Also how much of the putty do you use/how many could you make? I'm just wondering how these compare to slugs in terms of cost and weight.

These weigh as much as you want really. It depends on the depth of the hole, and how much putty you cram in there. When I made the last batch, they weighed between 0.7-1.0 gram, which is right around the weight of a slug with a #6 washer. The package claims it weighs 19 ounces for the 90' roll. If you were making 0.8 gram darts, that would roughly be 600-700 darts for $8 worth of putty. Felt remains the same price, so these are actually a little bit more expensive per dart. You're still only looking at roughly $0.02 a dart though.

[Elmo1234]

Nice job on these! I would glue on the felt pad with some sort of glue to make the darts more durable.

[KaneTheMediocre]

I personally like the silicone darts better. I don't mean to bash this design of dart, but the silicone darts Snickers sent me I was very happy with, and you can simply dip your wye in cornstarch between rounds to keep feeding issues down. (Rather than coating your darts and clothes in it)
These seem reliable, but the drag from the felt pad in the barrel is high, considering the silicone domes have no drag, and seem a little easier to make.
Just my opinion on these, I don't mean to discourage people from making these darts. They are safer than slugs, the difference is unimaginable unless you actually hold these darts in your hand.

I also like the silicone darts better, but based on the labor needed to make these, it's not a choice of 10 silicone domes vs 10 AMIORS. It's more of a choice between 10 silicone domes and 100 AMIORS, in which case I'll take 100 darts any day. Furthermore, these don't require a special mold, or special skills (Snickers is miraculously good at centering those domes). As much as I'd like to sell those molds, the AMIORS are a better entry-level option for most nerfers.

Thread Pinned

Nifty

This seems about comparable to average slugs, if not the particularly well made slugs that I've seen in your area. What sort of failures are you experiencing? Lost felt pads?

Do the heads deform much when they hit a hard target? I would imagine that the putty might cause the dart to flare out or swell over time after getting mashed into trees, walls, or people, but I guess it could be reshaped easily enough.

Lost felt pads is generally the failure, but being trampled is a close second. From limited testing we didn't see any head deformation from being blasted at hard surfaces, although the felt would eventually come off. Deformation dart deaths were generally the result of the dart landing on something hard and being trod upon.

Any testing in cold weather yet? I would anticipate that they might be more durable than many other darts in the cold, but then they might not satisfy your softness requirements if it is cold enough to make a difference.

Have you tried covering the tip of the dart in putty and attaching a non-adhesive felt pad?

Aside from a 40 degree war, no super-cold testing. I put some in the freezer, and the cold definitely makes the putty stiffer, but it never completely freezes and doesnt come close to the hardness of hot glue. I'd like to pick up some dry ice and see if it "freezes" at any temperature, but I havent done that.

Non adhesive felt pads won't work because the putty doesnt have the low viscosity of uncured silicone or hot-glue. It doesn't seep into the fibers and create a purely mechanical grip like those substances. The adhesive pad at least provides a contiguous surface to stick to, and the actual adhesive on the pad may or may not help. But, if you look at the OP, I've also insisted that putty won't stay in the hole, so there's that.

[shardbearer]

My putty arrived from McMaster, and I made a few, and then ran out of foam (hint hint kane). Ridiculously easy to make, even less skill than slugs. I used Shmmee's dremel jig to drill them. Pretty cool stuff, however I don't like how the heads get deformed. Occasionally I have to roll the heads between my fingers to fit them in the barrel if they've been stepped on or fired out of this. Also, weights are hard to make accurate. I have been experimenting with with rolling the putty into a long log and cutting it into equal lengths, but it proves to be difficult.Also, AMIORS reminds me of armoires. And since when did we start calling PANS Rubberized Slugs?

Edited by shardbearer, 19 November 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Cannonball]

Why not use a section of drinking straw that you fill with the putty to a certain length, and then cut off and insert into the dart? Might be an easier way to come up with a standard weight. Or would that interfere too much with a dart head bending when used in a hopper?

Edited by Cannonball, 18 November 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[pop tart]

Would using a non adhesive felt pad and actually gluing it to the tip with hotglue or goop decrease the likelihood of the tip coming off? You wouldn't be using much, so I hope it passes your softness requirements.
Edit-I cant read. Elmo beat me to it.

Edited by pop tart, 20 November 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[Ambience 327]

One thing I have seen at most wars I attend is people who pick up darts and drop them in their hopper without looking at them. This most often results in humorous headless darts fishtailing out of their blaster, but I have seen slugs with no felt pads (i.e. washers exposed) fired in this manner.

Thus, I ask whether you guys have tested how these things feel & fare when fired with just the putty and no pad. I imagine it would be far safer than washers with no felt pad, but empirical data on the safety of such would be appreciated. (Especially seeing as you mention felt pad loss being the most common type of failure, whereas total head loss seems much more common with slugs. I imagine firing these darts feltless wouldn't be a rarity if they catch on.)

Edited by Ambience 327, 19 November 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[Meaker VI]

Thus, I ask whether you guys have tested how these things feel & fare when fired with just the putty and no pad. I imagine it would be far safer than washers with no felt pad, but empirical data on the safety of such would be appreciated.

I was wondering the same thing. It almost sounds like they'd work with no pad, except that the pad is keeping the putty in? Does there seem to be a way to keep the putty in with no pad (is it gluable?), and would that be safe?

[KaneTheMediocre]

One thing I have seen at most wars I attend is people who pick up darts and drop them in their hopper without looking at them. This most often results in humorous headless darts fishtailing out of their blaster, but I have seen slugs with no felt pads (i.e. washers exposed) fired in this manner.

Thus, I ask whether you guys have tested how these things feel & fare when fired with just the putty and no pad. I imagine it would be far safer than washers with no felt pad, but empirical data on the safety of such would be appreciated. (Especially seeing as you mention felt pad loss being the most common type of failure, whereas total head loss seems much more common with slugs. I imagine firing these darts feltless wouldn't be a rarity if they catch on.)

I agree that headless darts are common enough to warrant concern. I'd be very surprised if the bare putty was capable of serious damage, but it's worth looking in to.

I was wondering the same thing. It almost sounds like they'd work with no pad, except that the pad is keeping the putty in? Does there seem to be a way to keep the putty in with no pad (is it gluable?), and would that be safe?

The pad doesnt keep the putty in. The pad slides against the wye, and initially seems to stick great to the foam, but with use the putty-pad interface becomes the deciding factor. I would not expect any glues to bond felt and putty better without creating a more rigid spot which would compromise safety.

Why not use a section of drinking straw that you fill with the putty to a certain length, and then cut off and insert into the dart? Might be an easier way to come up with a standard weight. Or would that interfere too much with a dart head bending when used in a hopper?

Because I don't want to stab people with drinking straws. It may or may not interfere with hopper feed, probably depending upon the length.

My putty arrived from McMaster, and I made a few, and then ran out of foam (hint hint kane). Ridiculously easy to make, even less skill than slugs. I used Shmmee's dremel jig to drill them. Pretty cool stuff, however I don't like how the heads get deformed. Occasionally I have to roll the heads between my fingers to fit them in the barrel if they've been stepped on or fired out of this. Also, weights are hard to make accurate. I have been experimenting with with rolling the putty into a long log and cutting it into equal lengths, but it proves to be difficult.Also, AMIORS reminds me of armoires. And since when did we start calling PANS Rubberized Slugs?

When making mine, I never worried about weight, just filling the hole. Which generally required some adjustment to the original blob of putty. So if you want accurate weight, you need to both have accurate holes and accurate, matched blobs of putty. More accurate holes than ours is certainly possible, as we didn't have a depthstop on the dremel jig. More accurate blobs of putty is also possible, but I'm not sure what's the best way to do it. I'm considering a crude extruder.

Edited by KaneTheMediocre, 27 November 2012 - 01:02 AM.

[Ambience 327]

I'm considering a crude extruder.

Time to bust out the Plah-Doh toys!

[Draconis]

I'm considering a crude extruder.

I was thinking about that as well. One thing to check... Does the material flow easily if heated? If so, then modifying a hot glue gun might work.

[mysterio]

These performed quite beautifully at YANO 2, minus some dart squelching, but that happens with all darts. Really sturdy, soft, and easy to repair. Also cheap as hell.

[Mully]

As mysterio said,
These are great.
The're were only like six breakages at YANO, mainly due to stepping:)
Overall they worked really well as a slug replacement.
I can't wait to make a batch of my own

Mully

EDIT:
It was a dart-torcher zone.
Hard rubber, metal, a TON of water, (one table area had about an inch of water around it.
It was like a lake)
These things survived it really well, as stated above, they are a worthy if not better (in my opinion) version of the slug.
Now that I think about it, if we had only used slugs there...well, not a good idea.

Edited by Mully, 17 December 2012 - 08:29 PM.

[therealnerfjunkies]

Like Mully and Mysterio said, these were AWESOME at YANO. I hardly used my slugs because of these beauties. The only thing that I am confused about is how you made that jig for centering the holes. Does your dremel have threads, because mine doesn't.

[snickers]

Like Mully and Mysterio said, these were AWESOME at YANO. I hardly used my slugs because of these beauties. The only thing that I am confused about is how you made that jig for centering the holes. Does your dremel have threads, because mine doesn't.

You must not have a dremel. Unscrew the "chuck" cover until it comes off. You will find the threads there.

[KaneTheMediocre]

These performed quite beautifully at YANO 2, minus some dart squelching, but that happens with all darts. Really sturdy, soft, and easy to repair. Also cheap as hell.

As mysterio said,
These are great.
The're were only like six breakages at YANO, mainly due to stepping:)
Overall they worked really well as a slug replacement.
I can't wait to make a batch of my own />

Mully

I think these comments are related. I disagree with Mysterio's assertion that dart squelching happens with all darts, however I'm pretty sure that the squelching I experienced was related to me picking up darts and putting them in my hopper indiscriminately (this included some thoroughly WTF darts that had been trampled on the hard rubber surface of the playground). I haven't been able to thoroughly test to confirm that bufu'd darts cause the sort of squelching I experienced, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis considering there was 0 squelchage at the beginning of the war.

I'm not too concerned about what this says about their durability vs slugs, because dart survival would have been about 0% with slugs and that playground. I was blasting AMIORS into metal pipes at close range and stepping on darts all day, so losing 10-20% is entirely reasonable. I'm pretty sure the losses were much less than that, but I need to sort the darts from the war, and determine criteria for deeming a dart to be "dead".

[mysterio]

I think these comments are related. I disagree with Mysterio's assertion that dart squelching happens with all darts, however I'm pretty sure that the squelching I experienced was related to me picking up darts and putting them in my hopper indiscriminately (this included some thoroughly WTF darts that had been trampled on the hard rubber surface of the playground). I haven't been able to thoroughly test to confirm that bufu'd darts cause the sort of squelching I experienced, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis considering there was 0 squelchage at the beginning of the war.

I'm not too concerned about what this says about their durability vs slugs, because dart survival would have been about 0% with slugs and that playground. I was blasting AMIORS into metal pipes at close range and stepping on darts all day, so losing 10-20% is entirely reasonable. I'm pretty sure the losses were much less than that, but I need to sort the darts from the war, and determine criteria for deeming a dart to be "dead".

I meant that all dart types that use alternative heads do that sometimes. Oogoo, silicone, etc.

[snickers]

I meant that all dart types that use alternative heads do that sometimes. Oogoo, silicone, etc.

Silicone domes don't.

[mysterio]

When theyre made crappy and have silicone over the side, or are top large for the barrel. Regardless, it was the stepped on darts that had the most problems

[Draconis]

I was thinking about that as well. One thing to check... Does the material flow easily if heated? If so, then modifying a hot glue gun might work.

So answering my own question here...

Short answer: Yes, it flows. But not easily, yet.

Long answer: The process begins thusly...

1. Acquire a hot glue gun which you have no qualms with possibly destroying. Only took me about five trips to the Goodwill out let to find a nice 40 Watt model with a high and low setting, in nearly new condition.

2. Ball up a bunch of putty and cylinders about 3/8" wide.

3. Shove the putty in to the heating chamber and heat up the appliance.

4. After filling the chamber, use some sort of ramrod to force the putty through the nozzle. I just used a glue stick for this test, but I will rig up something better later.

5. Use the trigger as normal and fill the dart heads, adding the felt tip over the top while the putty is still molten.



Warning: Being more dense than glue, this stuff appears to remain hot longer, and is stickier even when fully cooled. The possibility of burning yourself is greater.

Post warning warning: On the high setting, I believe some portion of the putty was boiling, or possibly trapped air had expanded to the point that it would force the material through the nozzle without provocation, rather like a dog pile. Ick.

Edited by Draconis, 08 January 2013 - 07:20 PM.