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Air Gun trigger spring

Is it really needed?

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#1 BMSCmods

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 04:21 PM

Ok so today I opened up my at3k to replace the pump with my hydro cannon pump. I gutted everything on the pump including the trigger. I took the trigger spring off and set it aside. So when i figured out the pump didn't work I started putting the the trigger on without the trigger spring. When I finished closing up the gun I pulled the trigger and noticed is was signifecantly easier and smoother to pull and in my confusion I happened to glance over and see the trigger spring laying out. So I thought it still might fire and sure enough it did! And when I had the gun pumped up I could feel the trigger pull was MUCH EASIER to fire than with the installed trigger spring. In the trigger's rest position it didn't slide around cause if assembled correctly the at3k's trigger actually raps around the firing pin in between to walls. And when the gun is fired the firing pin shoots foward back to the front of the tank with the trigger on it so it also acts as a return spring. So taking out the trigger spring in a 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k, and supermaxx 1500 and 3000 etc would work. So I was wondering how you would like it, so if you have have anyone of these guns I would highly reccomend trying it out becuase I think it makes the trigger pull much smoother. So if you did I would like to see what you think of it below if you have the time. Thank You for your time! BMSC
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#2 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 04:30 PM

This has been discussed to death before. Theoretically the trigger spring allows for faster valve release at the stock pressures due to how the force is released but little empirical testing has been done.
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#3 Draconis

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:08 PM

By "little empirical testing" I expect that Zorn means that Laramie's design engineers took the required physics and dynamic systems courses for them to graduate from the schools of engineering which they were attending. It also isn't just at stock pressures which this concept increases performance, but it would be more noticeable there than at higher "competitive" pressures.
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#4 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:36 PM

but little empirical testing has been done.

BITCH, PLEASE

Bob posited that the purpose of the spring was to increase the speed which the valve opens, increasing performance. I would guess that this is what the Larami engineers had in mind, but I doubt they put as much thought into it as we give them credit for. In reality it does not seem to affect average power, but does make the power somewhat more consistent. I personally do a pen mod, since I prefer the feel of a trigger without a spring (at the sacrifice of some accuracy).
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#5 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:39 PM

BITCH, PLEASE

Bob posited that the purpose of the spring was to increase the speed which the valve opens, increasing performance. I would guess that this is what the Larami engineers had in mind, but I doubt they put as much thought into it as we give them credit for. In reality it does not seem to affect average power, but does make the power somewhat more consistent. I personally do a pen mod, since I prefer the feel of a trigger without a spring (at the sacrifice of some accuracy).


You did it with a plugged pump remember. Bob was super mad about that since the factory design was for the stock pressure.
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"In short, the same knowledge that underlies the ability to produce correct judgement is also the knowledge that underlies the ability to recognize correct judgement. To lack the former is to be deficient in the latter."
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#6 Blue

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:43 PM

I think what he's trying to say is the actual TRIGGER spring was taken off, the one that pushes the trigger, not the one attached to the tank.
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#7 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:45 PM

You did it with a plugged pump remember. Bob was super mad about that since the factory design was for the stock pressure.

True, it might actually do something practical at stock pressures.
But we don't really care about stock pressure.

MOAR POWEREEERRRRRR

Edited by Daniel Beaver, 25 June 2012 - 07:02 PM.

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#8 spencerak

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:58 PM

I think what he's trying to say is the actual TRIGGER spring was taken off, the one that pushes the trigger, not the one attached to the tank.


I think so too and if that is so, I did that to my air tech 2000 quite a while ago, but with paint it occasionally wouldn't go all the way forward thus not holding pressure.

Edited by spencerak, 25 June 2012 - 06:58 PM.

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#9 ShaNayNay

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 07:27 PM

Anyone find it ironic that the mods turned this into a discussion thread?

Anywho, judging from Daniel's observations, it is a matter of preference. From my experience and with my absolver 4B, I have realized that a regular trigger pull yields considerably weaker distances than a very fast and strong trigger pull. Given this, I prefer a trigger pull that is sudden, and not eased into (purpose of that spring). Just do what you like best as it appears that the presence or absence of a trigger spring does not affect the power by much.

Edited by ShaNayNay, 25 June 2012 - 07:29 PM.

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New Jersey is fuckin weird


#10 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 07:47 PM

Anyone find it ironic that the mods turned this into a discussion thread?


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#11 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 07:56 PM

Anywho, judging from Daniel's observations, it is a matter of preference. From my experience and with my absolver 4B, I have realized that a regular trigger pull yields considerably weaker distances than a very fast and strong trigger pull. Given this, I prefer a trigger pull that is sudden, and not eased into (purpose of that spring). Just do what you like best as it appears that the presence or absence of a trigger spring does not affect the power by much.


The purpose of the spring is to do exactly the opposite of what you described. It is meant to deliver fast and consistent trigger pulls, since for force less than the force required to open the valve, the spring compresses and stores the work done by your finger. The end result is more power deliver at time of valve opening than what you would get without the spring.

In the argument of fast strong trigger pulls, keeping the spring is better, assuming that the spring does not hit solid length before the required force to open the valve (as determined by the pressure in the tank and valve surface area).

Whether "regular trigger pull yields considerably weaker distances than a very fast and strong trigger pull" is a statistically significant fact is questionable. Also so is whether anyone really cares given that most people do the pin spring mod out of comfort reasons and only justify it with range reasons (presumably for the sake of earning more internet points).
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"In short, the same knowledge that underlies the ability to produce correct judgement is also the knowledge that underlies the ability to recognize correct judgement. To lack the former is to be deficient in the latter."
Kruger and Dunning (1999)

#12 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 08:21 PM

^
This is all correct. A practical summary:
The spring provides a small performance benefit at the pressures we use these blasters at. Removing the spring may confer some ergonomic benefits that are worth sacrificing that small bit of performance.

Edited by Daniel Beaver, 25 June 2012 - 08:22 PM.

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#13 ShaNayNay

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:14 PM

My apologies. The gif made it look like the spring eased the rather rather than strengthening it.

Thank you for caring. :)
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New Jersey is fuckin weird


#14 taerKitty

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:47 AM

If you're looking for a spring-loaded air valve, here are some options:

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Super Soaker Max-D 2000 (I don't know if others in the same line have it)

Posted Image


It's hard to see, but there's a cam-like action going. Once the trigger rotates the triangular piece to a certain point, a spring will snap from one position to the other (like an toggle- style 'clicky' wall-mouned light switch.) This opens the ball valve very quickly.

Posted Image


Images thanks to sscentral.org. In fact, they have a good explanation on how these work, as well.

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SuperMaxx 1000 (photo courtesy of CheezyPizza)

Posted Image


The < shaped piece holds the pin valve shut while the trigger compresses the spring around the pin. When the trigger moves to the 'break' point, it rotates the < piece down, and the pin valve pin is free to move.

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Plunger Rod Valve

Posted Image


The NF plunger bar primed allows the pin valve to close. When it is fired (fully forward) it pulls the pin valve open. However, the reservoir is pointed backwards relative to the NF.

Edited by taerKitty, 27 June 2012 - 02:20 AM.

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