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Bolt sled reinforcement physics qustion.

Why not use a butterss style support instead?

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#1 Darthrambo

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 02:16 AM

(Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious here)

I don't understand why every bolt sled reinforcement I've seen on here so far just has some bracket or bent clothes hanger that is glued into the middle of the plastic of the bolt sled.

Wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense and make it a whole lot more strong if you were to put in braces going from the vertical part of the sled to the horizontal forming a triangle?
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#2 Buffdaddy

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 03:27 AM

I assume you're referring to the Longshot.

The answer is simple: there's no room for such a thing. You have to take into account the clearance between the bolt sled and the clip, plunger tube, shell, etc. So you can't cross brace it, like you're thinking. All we can do is reinforce the existing plastic with some kind of metal (I've done both metal coat hanger and aluminum sheet reinforcements, running alongside the plastic arms).
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#3 Darthrambo

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 03:56 AM

I assume you're referring to the Longshot.

The answer is simple: there's no room for such a thing. You have to take into account the clearance between the bolt sled and the clip, plunger tube, shell, etc. So you can't cross brace it, like you're thinking. All we can do is reinforce the existing plastic with some kind of metal (I've done both metal coat hanger and aluminum sheet reinforcements, running alongside the plastic arms).


No, I'm talking about any bolt sled not just the longshot

I'm not talking about bracing the left and right sides together across the middle where the bolt and clip are either (this wouldn't even really help with structural strength)

What I'm saying is brace the left sides horizontal piece to the left sides vertical piece and the right sides horizontal piece to the right sides vertical piece so that the brace forms the hypotenuse of the triangle. This should make the piece much stronger than the current way of just gluing metal to the existing bolt sled.
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#4 238232

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:10 AM

I think Buff got what you were trying to say the first time, and I'm saying the same as him. Looking at both my Longshot and Alpha Trooper, there is no room.

On the LS, the front of the plunger tube gets in the way, and with the tube being wider than the boltsled there's no way around it. On the AT, several guide rails and the clip lock get in the way. You might be able to remove the clip lock, but I wouldn't want to futz with the guide rails.

Anyhow, why don't you try it and get back to us if it works? I think that'd settle it for certain.
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#5 wardrive

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:45 AM

The LS doesn't have the clearance to go for some extensive reinforcement at least not without major modifications (i.e. hacking and adding plastic) to the plunger tube in the front. As far as I can tell, the Angel Breach solves the issue by replacing the bolt sled altogether (More experienced users, feel free to correct me on that if I'm remiss).

As most of the N-strike line that uses magazines is based on the Recon, there's really not much of a need to reinforce the bolt sled due to lower power potential..

Generally speaking, modding is an incremental process.. We stand on the shoulders of those who came before us, and owe it to those who come after us to provide them the benefit of our experience. Which is my way of saying, most of us will do our mods as cheaply as possible.
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#6 238232

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 07:09 AM

Brass breeching still requires a reinforced boltsled, were you thinking of singling a LS? I did see a mod where someone took out the rod attaching the boltsled to the bolt, and put a handle there instead. That'd solve the issue since it completely bypasses the weak spot in the boltsled.
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#7 taerKitty

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 01:49 PM

Around here, the rule is, "don't ask, do." Try it and find out why it hasn't been done, or post a writeup of how to do it and why it's better than the alternatives.
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#8 Darthrambo

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:36 AM

I think Buff got what you were trying to say the first time, and I'm saying the same as him. Looking at both my Longshot and Alpha Trooper, there is no room.

On the LS, the front of the plunger tube gets in the way, and with the tube being wider than the boltsled there's no way around it. On the AT, several guide rails and the clip lock get in the way. You might be able to remove the clip lock, but I wouldn't want to futz with the guide rails.


No, he didn't get what I was asking and you missed the point as well.

Again I am not talking about a support that would go across the boltsled from the left side to the right.


To clarify I am talking about is a support going from the vertical section of one side, to the long horizontal section of the same side. Very basic physics tells us that this would survive much more stress than the "L" shape as long as it was affixed well.

And yes there is plenty of room to pull it off and nothing in the mechanism would get in the way of something like this.


The LS doesn't have the clearance to go for some extensive reinforcement at least not without major modifications (i.e. hacking and adding plastic) to the plunger tube in the front. As far as I can tell, the Angel Breach solves the issue by replacing the bolt sled altogether (More experienced users, feel free to correct me on that if I'm remiss).


Again, I don't know what you think I'm talking about but we definitely aren't on the same page.

Here guys look at this boltsled, see how at the... crotch? of the "L" the material is extended so that it forms more of a triangle rather than an "L". This is what I'm talking about.


Good comparison of what I'm talking about @ 0:28

It does fit, it would be stronger as long as it was attached securely, I was just wondering if there was any reason why people didn't do it like this.

As most of the N-strike line that uses magazines is based on the Recon, there's really not much of a need to reinforce the bolt sled due to lower power potential..

Unless you put in a stronger spring + a power stock spring, bad the tube and add some epoxy to the catch nub. At this point, the bolt sled is probably going to be your weakest link.
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#9 SgNerf

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:55 AM

Darthrambo,

Yes, that custom fabricated bolt sled design i reviewed features a thicker "buttress-style" support in the L-shaped section and it still fits (and works nicely) in the Longshot casing without any further modification.

Here is a side-by-side comparison:

Posted Image

So yeah... that kind of reinforcement or support design can work too. :)

Edited by SgNerf, 01 November 2011 - 04:50 AM.

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#10 238232

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:57 AM

Wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense and make it a whole lot more strong if you were to put in braces going from the vertical part of the sled to the horizontal forming a triangle?


What I'm saying is brace the left sides horizontal piece to the left sides vertical piece and the right sides horizontal piece to the right sides vertical piece so that the brace forms the hypotenuse of the triangle. This should make the piece much stronger than the current way of just gluing metal to the existing bolt sled.


To clarify I am talking about is a support going from the vertical section of one side, to the long horizontal section of the same side. Very basic physics tells us that this would survive much more stress than the "L" shape as long as it was affixed well.


Actually, I read both your first and second posts in this thread and I suspect all of us were on the same page as far as you managed to describe this (on a side note, why didn't you link the video in the first place? You know what they say about a picture being worth a thousand words).

Your description, however, was inadequate, and I thought you actually meant going from one end of the boltsled to the other as per the red line in this image:

Posted Image
(Original image from SGNerf's site)

Given how Buff, wardrive and myself all said the same thing, I expect it's likely that we all read the same thing and understood it in the same way. Nowhere did you mention this support not connecting with either end of the other two sides. The definition of the hypotenuse is the longest side of the triangle, and I think when most people get told about the hypotenuse of a triangle, they think from the end of one line to the end of the other, not this short line that joins with neither end that you're describing in SGNerf's boltsled. That's a buttress, as SGNerf has said.

How you thought any of us got confused with left and right sides is beyond me.

If you were actually thinking of bracing it along that red line, as myself and taer have now both said, do it yourself and tell us if it works.

Edited by 238232, 01 November 2011 - 04:35 AM.

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#11 Darthrambo

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 06:09 AM

Actually, I read both your first and second posts in this thread and I suspect all of us were on the same page as far as you managed to describe this (on a side note, why didn't you link the video in the first place? You know what they say about a picture being worth a thousand words).

Because I didn't know it existed yet.


Given how Buff, wardrive and myself all said the same thing, I expect it's likely that we all read the same thing and understood it in the same way. Nowhere did you mention this support not connecting with either end of the other two sides. The definition of the hypotenuse is the longest side of the triangle, and I think when most people get told about the hypotenuse of a triangle, they think from the end of one line to the end of the other, not this short line that joins with neither end that you're describing in SGNerf's boltsled.

Yeah, so any line going from the vertical arm to the horizontal would be a hypotenuse of the triangle it forms, it doesn't have to be from the end of either arm. I figured since the tube was obviously in the way of something like in that pic it would be out of the question.

That's a buttress, as SGNerf has said.

If you look at the full title of the thread, this is exactly what I call it in the description.

How you thought any of us got confused with left and right sides is beyond me.

Specifically because of:

So you can't cross brace it, like you're thinking.


If you were actually thinking of bracing it along that red line, as myself and taer have now both said, do it yourself and tell us if it works.

Well, of course you can't if the tube is in the way or if there is no space due to a rail.

But a small triangle at the front part of the sled would definitely work and would actually provide a lot more support than just following the plastic on the bolt sled.

My question was more if there was any reason why people don't do the reinforcement like this.

Edited by Darthrambo, 01 November 2011 - 06:13 AM.

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#12 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:19 AM

This thread has become far too wordy.

Yes, it makes sense to utilize triangular reinforcement when reinforcing bolt sleds. But clearance issues constrain the extent which that can be done, especially in the Longshot. In most cases, simply adding reinforcing materials to the existing breech geometry provides sufficient strength (and is easy to do).

Edited by Daniel Beaver, 01 November 2011 - 07:20 AM.

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#13 Langley

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:27 AM

My question was more if there was any reason why people don't do the reinforcement like this.



Because they're all a bunch of pedantic nutjobs who are too busy arguing on the internet to get anything done. Go do it, then come back and let us know. If someone else here has actually tried it and has some insight, go ahead and say so. Otherwise, this pointless argument over who's responsible for the initial miscommunication needs to end.
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