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Metal-free Hot Glue Dome Dart Heads

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#1 taerKitty

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 06:11 PM

(Note: The Dartsmithing thread is here, so I put this thread here as well. If that's not right, please accept my apologies and feel free to move it as appropriate.)

The short form:

Here is a metal-free dart head that is made from hot glue in a silicone rubber cast.

Posted Image


===

Supplies and Materials:

- Silicone putty mix. 1/2 lb made 20 x 3/4" PVC molds. Buy the 1 pound package if you're planning to make molds for sale.

- Hot glue in large quantities from McMasters or Harbor Freight

- Hot glue gun

- Razor blade

- 1/2" or 3/4" PVC

- One or more sets of a 1-1/2" bolt, hex nut, fender washer, and acorn nut of the same thread, either 1/4" or #10.

- A Sharpie

- Some 'slow' adhesive - Shoe Goo, Plumber's Goop, or perhaps Gorilla Glue
===

This is what the final product looks like:

Posted Image


For those not familiar, acorn nuts look like this:

Posted Image


===

Directions:

- Thread hex nut, then fender washer on bolt, and finally screw the acorn nut on the bolt as far as it will go.

- Drop the fender washer against the top of the acorn nut, then 'unscrew' the hex nut until it is snug against the fender washer, which is snug against the top of the acorn nut.

- Use the Sharpie to mark one face on each the acorn nut and the hex nut that are stacked.

- Using the mark on the hex nut, 'screw' it toward the head of the bolt 5 turns (more if you want a longer post).

- Take the PVC and cut a 1" cylinder.

- Mix enough of the silicone rubber compound to almost fill the PVC cylinder.

- Press the bolt-nut-washer-acorn-nut assembly into the rubber in the PVC by the head of the bolt. If done correctly, some amount will spill out - between the PVC and work surface, between the PVC and the washer, and between the washer and the bolt shaft.

Note: if you are using 1/4" nuts and 1/2" PVC, be very, very careful to keep the bolt centered and straight, otherwise the 1/4" nut may press against the inside of the PVC, ruining the mold.

- (Optional) Take the extra, press it under the rubber compound in the PVC and press again. Repeat until you are confident no air bubbles exist.

- Wait 30 minutes, or whatever the cure time is for your product.

This is what it should look like at this time (1/4" nuts and bolts, 3/4" PVC)

Posted Image


This is where the "at least one set" part comes in. I would recommend making at least five molds, but you can do it with a single set of nuts and bolt.

- Remove the 'cork' from the PVC. Take the razor and cut down one side of the bolt, the acorn nut, and up the other side.

- Split the two sides and remove the bolt and acorn nut.

- Using the razor, cut an air channel at the tip of the base.

- (Optional) Cut an air channel from the base of the nut 'up' toward the post side.

===

Using the mold

- Place the two mold side-by-side so it looks solid from the top and bottom.

- Insert the 'cork' back into the PVC.

- Insert the hot glue nozzle into the theads.

- S-l-o-w-l-y squeeze the glue into the mold. If you splash it in with a quick squirt, you are liable to trap air bubbles.

- Let glue dry for 5 minutes.

- If you are making solid posts, be aware that hot glue does shrink as it cools. Insert the nozzle into the threads again and slowly squirt two or three drops of hot glue.

===

Using Nutheads without posts

If you wish, you can use nutheads without a matching hole in the foam.

- Cut off the threaded post on the nuthead.

- Melt a hole in the FBR, preferably with a small (<30W) soldering iron.

- Drip hot glue into the melted hole until a solid bubble of hot glue forms.

- Place the head onto the FBR, centered and straight.

===

Using Nutheads with posts

The problem with posted nutheads is that they are very unforgiving in terms of melting a hole. If the hole is off-centered or not straight, the darts will scrape the barrel or otherwise be inaccurate.

- Melt a hole in the FBR, preferable with a small (<30W) soldering iron.

- Drip some slow adhesive in the melted hole.

- Insert the post.

===

Thoughts

---

Data

- My 1/4" nutheads weigh appx 1g each. I lost the #10 acorn nuts that were going to be my next test case, but I suspect they would weigh in the 0.75 to 0.9g range.

- I'm getting about 9-10 each 4" glue stick. This tracks, because 45 x 4" glue sticks is approximately 1 lb, which is appx 450g.

- Out of an unmodded second-gen 4B, I'm getting 130-140'

- The 1/4" of glue in the form of the threaded bolt is very strong. I am unable to pull it off without using my fingernails, or twisting it.

- 5 lbs of hot glue at McMasters costs $38 and generates 2250 darts, so that works out to roughly $0.017 per dart head, so less than two cents each.

- Harbor Freight has 50 x 4" glue sticks for $2.17, which works out to half a cent per dart head.

- This technique can also be used to mold streamline heads, once the head has been filled with something to keep it from collapsing and the hole patched.

---

Negatives (first, because I can't think of many)

- As a whole, we seem to be moving away from glue-domes and toward slugs.

- While easy to make, these tend to be much less forgiving if they are poorly mounted. And a melted hole is a must with these, otherwise they will detach quickly.

- Silicone putty compound is not found at my local Michael's or JoAnn's craft stores. My local Ben Franklin's has it.

---

Positives

- This allows us to create consistent glue dome heads, just like how slugs are mostly consistent (suppliers may vary, centering, yadda, yadda.)

- This allows new dartsmiths to create consistent darts. It makes it easier for newcomers to the hobby to become self-sufficient.

- These darts are much more aerodynamic than slugs. They may even be more aerodynamic than standard glue domes.

- They don't hurt any more than glue domes. Then again, I don't think slugs hurt any less.

- Once the molds are set, the only recurring cost is hot glue, which is readily available, and fairly cheap.

- To alleviate the difficulty in obtaining the silicone putty, someone could make and sell molds. We're still talking about commerce here, but between members of the NIC, which doesn't necessarily have to be internet: someone could buy the putty, make the molds, and sell them at a war, for example.

- Metal-free is much safer. No chance of a BB coming loose, or a washer edge showing.
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#2 utahnerf

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 08:58 PM

Congratulations, you have gained a Dartsmithing level.
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#3 MrPzowned

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 08:59 PM

Congratulations, you have gained a Dartsmithing level.

His dartsmithing level is... OVER 9000!
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17:54 Noodle Yes what he did was stupid
17:54 Noodle but it's a plastic toy
17:54 Gears BUT IT COULD'VE BEEN MY PLASTIC TOY

#4 Exo

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 09:03 PM

Wow. I am glad I walked in on that Chat conversation a while back. Very clever, and a lot better than Streamline molds. My one gripe is this: Are they heavy enough? How does the range compare to standard washer stefans? Nice work, this is a kind of miniature nerf-career capstone.
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#5 taerKitty

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 11:17 PM

Achievement .... unlocked!

Ranges are 130' - 140' out of an unmodded 4B with an 18" CPVC/PVC barrel.

They weigh about 1g each, so about the same range as our usual stefans and slugs.

I'd love to see people start making their own molds (check with your war organizers first, of course.)
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#6 Dayko

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 11:50 PM

Very nice write-up on these,Taer. I can't wait to see these in person.
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#7 Goombadude3

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 03:14 PM

I really like this. This is a very creative. +1 Kudos for you! :)
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#8 Ice Nine

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 01:07 AM

I don't understand how these darts get over the "can't order on the internet" barrier, since I don't know what the fuck a Ben Franklin's is. No different than buying washers and felt/craft foam/whatevs a local hardware stores and craft stores. Also, the nut head seems like it would throw off the aerodynamics of the dart. Also, please stop centering your images. On widescreens it looks like garbage and clashes with my aesthetically pleasing browser setup.

Allow me to address your advantages:

1.) Creating consistent domes is easy, without a mold, and doing so does not require a mold of any kind.

Posted Image

Those are easily done without weight, too.

2.) Slugs also allow them to create consistent darts, exactly as easily as these. I also imagine that felt pads/craft foam pads and washers are much easier to locate locally than silicone putty mix.

3.) They may be more aerodynamic than slugs, but if you're between one thirty and one forty feet, to my one twenties on slugs, the difference isn't vast or important. Also, they are absolutely less aerodynamic than any of the dome darts I have made.

4.) This is an arbitrary measure based on personal biases. There's no way to confirm this, and to say that you think that slugs hurt no less than glue domes just marks you as a massive liar, or a person who has abnormal nerve responses.

5.) Fair point. I'll concede it, although I'm sure the price differential only becomes noticeable on a huge scale. Also twenty dollars start-up plus the parts to make the molds is a non-negligible value. Again, I'm betting the benefits here are long-term to the extreme.

6.) This is stupid and the exact same could be said for pre-made slug tips. Still not getting over the buying online barrier in a way that can't be done for the other stuff.

7.) These are problems with badly made darts, and isn't unique to those types of darts. I bet that getting hit with a separated slug tip and separated these tips would not be a huge difference, as hot glue in this volume is probably not much more forgiving than metal.

Long story short, congratulations on your mechanism. It's fairly neat.

Whoops! Forgot to mention that these fail to overcome the war testing barrier. With slugs, even ones with hidden weights, the aerodynamics go a long way towards evening out differences. A washer and slingshot weight slug will only fire, maximally, ten or fifteen extra feet. With these there is no way to tell the difference between a pure glue and a hidden weight dart without empirical testing, which wastes time. The distance differential between adding fifteen feet to one twenty and adding twenty feet to one forty is significant and you should recognize that.

Edited by Ice Nine, 11 March 2011 - 05:20 AM.

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#9 Blue

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 01:32 AM

I don't understand how these darts get over the "can't order on the internet" barrier. Also, the nut head seems like it would throw off the aerodynamics of the dart. Also, please stop centering your images. On widescreens it looks like garbage and clashes with my aesthetically pleasing browser setup.

Allow me to address your advantages:

1.) Creating consistent domes is easy, without a mold, and doing so does not require a mold of any kind.

Posted Image

Those are easily done without weight, too.

2.) Slugs also allow them to create consistent darts, exactly as easily as these. I also imagine that felt pads/craft foam pads and washers are much easier to locate locally than silicone putty mix.

3.) They may be more aerodynamic than slugs, but if you're between one thirty and one forty feet, to my one twenties on slugs, the difference isn't vast or important. Also, they are absolutely less aerodynamic than any of the dome darts I have made.

4.) This is an arbitrary measure based on personal biases. There's no way to confirm this, and to say that you think that slugs hurt no less than glue domes just marks you as a massive liar, or a person who has abnormal nerve responses.

5.) Fair point. I'll concede it, although I'm sure the price differential only becomes noticeable on a huge scale. Also twenty dollars start-up plus the parts to make the molds is a non-negligible value. Again, I'm betting the benefits here are long-term to the extreme.

6.) This is stupid and the exact same could be said for pre-made slug tips. Still not getting over the buying online barrier in a way that can't be done for the other stuff.

7.) These are problems with badly made darts, and isn't unique to those types of darts. I bet that getting hit with a separated slug tip and separated these tips would not be a huge difference, as hot glue in this volume is probably not much more forgiving than metal.

Long story short, congratulations on your mechanism. It's fairly neat.

Whoops! Forgot to mention that these fail to overcome the war testing barrier. With slugs, even ones with hidden weights, the aerodynamics go a long way towards evening out differences. A washer and slingshot weight slug will only fire, maximally, ten or fifteen extra feet. With these there is no way to tell the difference between a pure glue and a hidden weight dart without empirical testing, which wastes time. The distance differential between adding fifteen feet to one twenty and adding twenty feet to one forty is significant and you should recognize that.


I, too, dislike the pictures being centered.
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#10 sputnik

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 01:33 AM

So Taerkitty sent me some samples to test out.
In 14" CPVC, with a PumpBow, I couldn't hit a doorway 30' away due to dart spiraling out of control.
With thickwall PETG, and a 4B, I had the same issue, out of control spiraling.
Were they well made? Sure, cool idea, but keeping the glue tip centered in the foam is nigh impossible.
I even removed the nuthead after the dart ripped (after 3 shots hitting skin, I might add) and put in on my foam, using medium wall petg and a PumpBow again. Another spiral, this time cracking the head.

They are simply not heavy/aerodynamic enough to work well with powerful guns.
The nuthead was just barely thicker than the foam, making easy loading into barrels difficult.
The pain test was obvious, I was able to tell the difference between these and slugs everytime, blindfolded.

Slugs are extremely simple to make, and very inexpensive. Plus they work in hoppers. These do not.

I don't hate the idea of new innovative dart-making, but this isn't the best way.

Edited by sputnik, 11 March 2011 - 01:47 AM.

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#11 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 08:38 AM

One aspect I like of these is the little nob that stick back - it ought to be an excellent anchor point. Eventually, I think we need to move away from hot glue (the pain difference is not a subjective issue), but this method provides a good base for molding other materials.

Ice9: your darts are excellent, but it is unreasonable to expect everyone to replicate them. After all, most people are at Zorn's skill level when it comes to making darts.

Edited by Daniel Beaver, 11 March 2011 - 08:40 AM.

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#12 taerKitty

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:25 AM

The shape and the materials are two separate things. We've shown we can make a given shape. As mentioned above, the next step appears to be to find better materials - something that is softer, yet still has sufficient density to be a suitable weight, and is durable.

Shmmee is experimenting with sugru - a mix of silicone caulk and corn starch. Caulk by itself takes too long to cure. I've tried expanding foam - too light. Any other ideas?

I'm not sure they are underweight for a high-powered blaster. I get 130-140' out of an unmodded singled 4B. I use these in a hopper on that 4B w/o feeding issues. On a good shot, they go 120' or so. On a bad shot, they go into someone's office, or hit the ceiling, or ...

... In other words, head centering, that's still got to be addressed. These darts are very unforgiving as far as misalignment goes - if it's off by a little, the dart will magnify that.
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#13 Nerf Gra

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 08:28 PM

I am also attempting to make dart heads with Sugru hopefully it turns out well cause it seems promising.
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QUOTE(VelveetaAvenger @ Dec 6 2010, 12:14 AM) View Post

Maybe there's no Mcmaster, but you could make the first coconut airtank.


#14 taerKitty

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 11:23 PM

I look forward to your results. How are you molding your sugru? Some fellow mad scientist/dartsmiths are also experimenting with sugru in HDPE cutting boards with holes bored in them with countersink bits as dart molds, too. How are you molding yours?

Here is something shmmee came up with:

Posted Image


Yes, they end in a point, but there are other discussions on how to alleviate that.

Again, that picture is NOT MINE. It belongs to shmmee, but I think it's worth sharing.
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Fugly is a feature.

#15 Nerf Gra

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 01:58 AM

Originally I was going to try to drill into some sort of material with various bits but I couldn't find a bit that really made the shape that I was looking for. And I was hard presses to find a suitable material to make the mold out of. However now that this article has been posted I have had a brainwave and will attempt to use acorn nuts to make a mold in some sort of mold making material i haven't figured out what its going to be yet though. I work a lot and work has been super crazy recently leaving me nearly useless afterwards so I haven't been able to work on this in a while but I will certainly try to get back on the band wagon here. I will report back with results.
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QUOTE(VelveetaAvenger @ Dec 6 2010, 12:14 AM) View Post

Maybe there's no Mcmaster, but you could make the first coconut airtank.


#16 taerKitty

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 09:20 AM

I'm never one to keep my plans secret when I'm trying to 'advance the hobby', so here goes. To follow in shmmee's lead, I've found that Harbor Freight has a great price on a set of cutting boards for $8.

Posted Image


- 14-7/8" L x 10-1/8" W x 7/16" H

- 16-1/4" L x 10-1/2"W x 5/16" H

Not accounting for handles, etc, that leaves me over 14" x 10" of surface to use. A bunch of c-clamps, and maybe a few thumbscrews in the middle, and I should be good to use a countersink 7/16" bit to make some molds.
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#17 1337

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 08:28 AM

I look forward to your results. How are you molding your sugru? Some fellow mad scientist/dartsmiths are also experimenting with sugru in HDPE cutting boards with holes bored in them with countersink bits as dart molds, too. How are you molding yours?

Here is something shmmee came up with:
Image
Yes, they end in a point, but there are other discussions on how to alleviate that.

Again, that picture is NOT MINE. It belongs to shmmee, but I think it's worth sharing.


They are simply not heavy/aerodynamic enough to work well with powerful guns.
The nuthead was just barely thicker than the foam, making easy loading into barrels difficult.


Has using a single BB (or anything else heavy) under the countersink bit been considered? I feel as if this may solve the "too light" problem, while maintaining the aerodynamics of the molded dome.
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#18 taerKitty

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 10:59 AM

We'll have to see with sugru. That much hot glue is 1g, which is more-or-less my target mass for a dart. Stock foam comes in at 1.1 to 1.5g, but their material is much softer. #6 and #8 slugs come in at under 0.8g. 1/4" slingshot is about 1.2g, which, by most accounts, is too heavy.

I'll make some stemless molds and mix up some 2:1, 3:1 and 4:1 (caulk-to-corn-starch ratios by volume) sugru to see if they're heavy enough, softer, and otherwise suitable.

I'm a little leery of sticking a BB in there because it might break free, but that fear may appear unfounded if the sugru is sufficiently firm.
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#19 shmmee

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 09:36 AM

Has using a single BB (or anything else heavy) under the countersink bit been considered? I feel as if this may solve the "too light" problem, while maintaining the aerodynamics of the molded dome.


I would be hesitant to drop any metal weights into a head. I've gone through 7 different adhesives trying to glue heads to FBR...

(tested by shooting into concrete floor with a BBBB at full power)

Sugru (headed up while still un-cured in mold) - separated while being removed from mold,
Hot glue -separated instantly,
Shoe goo - separated instantly,
"multi purpose cement" - survived 3 shots,
100% silicone - survived 10 shots,
Silicone liquid nails - pending,
Plumbers goop - pending

So far the only one to do ok, was 100% silicone, but that had a 24 hr cure time. The point I'm trying to make is that silicone doesn't like to form secure bonds with anything. Even if a suitable glue was found, heads will still separate, possibly/probably releasing any weights included. One of the primary goals of this thread was to remove hazardous metal weights from the equation.

The heads in the pic are about 1/4" high. Of the 3 i tried to range test (with a leveled BBBB - looking for the absolute max distance) 1 separated 20' from the barrel (fail) and the other two... were never recovered. I spent an hour wandering the street with my head down... I heard the things whistle as they disappeared... They looked like they were going straight till I lost them, but darn if I know how far they went. I wish I had a scale so I could weigh them.

Edited by shmmee, 16 March 2011 - 10:03 AM.

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#20 NerfGeek416

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 09:43 AM

What if the metal was completely encased in the head?
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#21 taerKitty

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 01:36 PM

I'm hot gluing my all-hot-glue nutheads to holed foam, and it seems to survive 7 point-blank shots to cement. Given the fact that this test case exceeds usual usage, I'm willing to accept 5 successful passes as the minimum standard for durability.
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Fugly is a feature.

#22 NerfGeek416

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 03:00 PM

Taer, how may hits do slugs last for? Just to give a comparison.
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#23 Ryan201821

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 04:12 PM

Taer, how may hits do slugs last for? Just to give a comparison.

I'm not taerkitty, but we've also been working on new dart alternatives for the last couple months. From my tests, well-made hot glue #6 washer slugs last about 4-5 shots before failing at 5' range from a brick wall with my RainbowPump.

Slugs (#6) made using silicone as an adhesive, lasted much longer, between 10-12 shots. Silicone slug darts using steel balls instead of washers lasted even longer 20-30+ shots before failing.

Only five shots seems like a pretty low standard for durability.

Silicone does present problems though, taking 7 days to achieve full strength, and 24 hours to "cure". We also had issues applying it, and making sure the dart head doesn't shift while gluing.

We did somewhat solve the issue of flying metal, by putting in silicone behind the steel ball. Then, put the weight in (after you have a hole of course) as you're applying more silicone to surround the metal in silicone and to secure the weight to the felt pad. This seemed to work really well. When the darts failed, the entire head separated from the foam, with the steel ball encased in rubbery silicone.

But anyway, I'm happy to see someone else trying to make new darts. Darts really are the most important thing in this hobby. Stock darts are expensive, and don't work in hoppers, and all homemade dart designs to this point are either not safe or not durable enough.

Oh, and it wasn't quite clear, but do these feed in hoppers? Seems pretty critical considering the biggest advantage of homemade darts is being able to use them in hoppers.

EDIT: I guess it is clear. These don't work in hoppers.

Edited by Ryan201821, 16 March 2011 - 04:22 PM.

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#24 taerKitty

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 04:24 PM

I use these in a hopper on that 4B w/o feeding issues.


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Fugly is a feature.

#25 Ryan201821

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 04:41 PM

I use these in a hopper on that 4B w/o feeding issues.

That's not what the guy said who received your samples.
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