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Stock Darts In Longer Than Stock Barrels

improve performance if you have to use unmodified stock darts

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#1 iknowmy3tables

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 09:29 AM

I play Humans vs Zombies on my campus and my campus rules dictate that we can only use stock darts with unmodified tips, and I have a blaster that uses longer than stock barrels and it wont achieve good range unless I use streamlines but of course streamlines can be extremely inaccurate, so I experimented with ways to improve the range of my taggers and whistler darts and came up with this
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it doesn't get as much range as my streamlines, but it's a very great improvement compared to the dart alone.

also let me know if this has been done before

Edited by iknowmy3tables, 27 October 2010 - 09:30 AM.

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#2 Guest_TheSilverhead_*

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 01:32 PM

By foam rod, do you mean foam BACKER rod? So, every time you want to shoot, you have to load a seperate sabot-type piece of foam BEHIND EVERY DART? That seems very inefficient, and I simply can't see how that would increase range. Unless, of course, your darts have a terrible barrel fit, and the FBR is acting as a sealer/pusher behind it. If that was the case, you need better barrels.
On the other hand, I use something similar in my titan scattergun sg-12 (yup, 12) but I use 3 taggers down the barrels (3 barrels, made of 1/2" sch. 40 PVC), followed by 9 streamlines (for 12 total), using the "head" or "tip" as a sealing piece to push out the 3 stramlines per barrel. Before you ask, yes it gets nice ranges. ~45 to 50 feet, 10 foot spread.

Also, I believe UIN13 used a setup in his MagStrike for shooting airsoft BB's- 1" FBR, BB's, 1" FBR.

tl;dr: Use better barrel fit. in HvZ, you need speed, NOT extra foam/range.
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#3 lionhawk

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 03:05 PM

I really don't get this. You're adding foam backer rod at the end of your stock darts? I don't see how this could increase the range unless it increased the seal, which means your range decrease is from your barrel's dart fit.
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#4 jaybo1996

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 03:09 PM

The foam backer rod is reducing the dead spae between his dart and his plunger tube, since the darts don't fit down the barrel> There are better ways to do this. Buy a coupling, and attach that instead of a barrel, then you can make special barrels for stock darts.

I know that CPVC nested in PVC with a hammer gets the most range with stock darts.

Just an after thought, that thing about shooting Airsoft BB's, it's really fun. I don't care how banned it is, shooting a shotgun spread out of a 4B is rediculous, it almost crosses the border into home defense.

Edited by jaybo1996, 27 October 2010 - 05:00 PM.

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#5 Darksircam

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 07:24 PM

I agree with Jaybo about the barrel. Get a piece of CPVC about 3 inches long, and stick it into a piece of PVC for maximum range. Reload is going to be pretty slow unless you only use a piece of PVC about 2 inches long.

Invest in shorter barrels. I would say to make a CPVC turret or speedloaders, as it's probably going to be faster to change the barrel than to put another piece of foam in it. And you can preload darts.

Also, what blaster are you using?

Edited by Darksircam, 27 October 2010 - 07:26 PM.

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#6 iknowmy3tables

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 08:25 PM

I'm actually using a modded marshmallow Mforcer, so there are 15 barrels that are spaced really close together so I can't attach couplers, also I avoided cpvc because this man noted that some of his barrels didn't fire if the darts were too tight, since I don't have petg I 'm currently using marker barrels,

so since I have a turret of 15 loose barrels it's not that big of a deal if I have to load a rod behind each dart.

The reason this can significantly increase the range is because the backer rod behind the dart utilizes more barrel length thus accelerates more and since the rod is so light but maintains the same initial speed as the dart in front of the rod takes up very little little energy

Edited by iknowmy3tables, 27 October 2010 - 08:26 PM.

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#7 jaybo1996

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 08:46 PM

Glad this works for you, just a side note, the same thing can be done to stop Titans and the like from ripping stock darts apart.
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#8 bpso86

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 10:19 PM

Wow...

I know that CPVC nested in PVC with a hammer gets the most range with stock darts.


No, you don't. In all actuality, cpvc is a terrible barrel material for higher powered blasters firing tag darts. You have terrible accuracy, and in my personal experience (and many others as well) it has caused the darts to shred with large amounts of air behind them.

As has been said more times than I care to count, barrel material always depends on blaster and dart fit. I have been able to fire tag darts out of a 4B with 1' of sch. 40 pvc farther than some folks firing stefans out of signal launchers. It all depends on your specific situation.


The reason this can significantly increase the range is because the backer rod behind the dart utilizes more barrel length thus accelerates more and since the rod is so light but maintains the same initial speed as the dart in front of the rod takes up very little little energy


What?

First of all, the little piece of FBR you have in there does take up more barrel length, but as we see with normal stefan lengths, longer is almost never better (unless you need to use them in a clip). This is most often due to friction, since there is more material in contact with the barrel walls it will slow down faster.

The only way that this could (and probably does, in your case) help your range is by (as previously mentioned) providing a better, more airtight seal in your admittedly loose barrels. If this is indeed the case I would recommend trying to use PVC (SCH. 80 in your case) if you can fit. If not, try out some 17/32" brass to make them fit a tad bit tighter, as when you're playing HvZ range and accuracy often take a backseat to ROF.
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#9 iknowmy3tables

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 11:23 PM

First of all, the little piece of FBR you have in there does take up more barrel length, but as we see with normal stefan lengths, longer is almost never better (unless you need to use them in a clip). This is most often due to friction, since there is more material in contact with the barrel walls it will slow down faster.

The only way that this could (and probably does, in your case) help your range is by (as previously mentioned) providing a better, more airtight seal in your admittedly loose barrels. If this is indeed the case I would recommend trying to use PVC (SCH. 80 in your case) if you can fit. If not, try out some 17/32" brass to make them fit a tad bit tighter, as when you're playing HvZ range and accuracy often take a backseat to ROF.


that's true that friction will make this less effective so this technique wouldn't be very good in a long or very tight barrel, however I'm using marker barrels which are 3.5 inches long and I can confirm that it is not the tight fit of the rod behind the dart that is improving the range because I used butchered stock darts as rods for the first few trials and still yielded significant increases,

think of it this way a foam rod seated further back into a barrel will accelerate more than a piece of foam seated towards the front, it is true that friction does make this less effective so I bet this technique would be relatively ineffective if the rod was more than two thirds the length of the dart, the rods I'm using are only 1/2" and it's works out really well for me, if you don't believe me then just try it yourself
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#10 Split

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 11:31 PM

I have to agree with the new guy here. I thought this was very clever. I think you guys are bring our more traditional darts-without-oversized-heads mindsets to the issue.

The main issue is that when using darts like taggers is that you can't use a long enough barrel to take advantage of the energy output of the blaster. The dart has already left the barrel long before the plunger/air tank has stopped pushing out air. By making the dart longer, the dart will be inside the barrel longer and absorb more energy.

Now, this is not the most elegant or pragmatic solution, but it is clever, and I'm impressed that the guy not only came up with it but could understand the reason it worked, even if he couldn't express it well enough (you should work on the spelling and all that, iknowmy3tables. There's a big emphasis on it around here, and it makes what you write far more coherent.)

What I would suggest for a real solution would be similar to what other people are suggesting - nested cpvc in pvc. I'd probably go with some thin-wall that's as long as your cpvc portion (which is in turn as long as the dart body), which transitions into normal pvc. With this, you can have a pvc coupler around the cpvc barrel, pull off the pvc section, put your dart in and then put the pvc back on.

I know that doesn't seem to work for the turreted gun you mentioned, and I'm drawing a blank on other solutions to that, so you probably are using a good system as is. Props for the ingenuity.
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#11 Abyss Mods

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 05:48 AM

Someone mentioned that this would take a long time to reload, but I'm going to have to disagree. The mforcer has rearloading so he can always load the turret and as the barrels get to the rearloading slot push in the piece of FBR. Obviously reloading will take longer but probably not as long you'd think.
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#12 Guest_TheSilverhead_*

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 05:43 PM

"longer is almost never better" I am sorely tempted to sig that. Anyway, why not just use a barrel that can hold THE WHOLE TAGGER, INCLUDING THE HEAD? That's what I do in my Titan for stock dart wars. Hang on, I'll get a video....

EDIT: Here ya go. I've been using this for a while. It gets awsome ranges. Turn down your speakers and ignore the dad!

Edited by TheSilverhead, 28 October 2010 - 06:55 PM.

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#13 Abyss Mods

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 07:58 PM

Well he's using a marshmallow mforcer so pvc isn't really an option here.
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#14 lionhawk

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 08:59 PM

I wasn't getting the concept until Split explained it. Now I can say good job. I'm glad this works well for you, and I might even try this myself and see what difference it makes.
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#15 KaneTheMediocre

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:57 PM

Or you can just use 3 foot long EMT barrels, and vacuum load the darts. But if you want to pick up and load twice as much stuff that's cool too.
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#16 qwertyupp

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:10 PM

Or you can just use 3 foot long EMT barrels, and vacuum load the darts. But if you want to pick up and load twice as much stuff that's cool too.

I love the sarcasm of some of the more experienced members on this sight. and forgive me if this is stupid, but would actually attaching the fbr to the dart by means of glue or something decrease the reload time, thus making this idea a bit more useful?
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#17 VelveetaAvenger

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 09:08 PM

Or you can just use 3 foot long EMT barrels, and vacuum load the darts. But if you want to pick up and load twice as much stuff that's cool too.

I love the sarcasm of some of the more experienced members on this sight. and forgive me if this is stupid, but would actually attaching the fbr to the dart by means of glue or something decrease the reload time, thus making this idea a bit more useful?

Well, it would definitely lower the time, but you'd want to test it. The added weight would probably take away whatever you're gaining from having the fbr there. I don't think he's allowed to modify his darts at all anyways, and you might get some zombies complaining about it if it does work.

Somebody should make a m'forcer with 3 foot long barrels though, that's something I'd like to see in action.

that's true that friction will make this less effective so this technique wouldn't be very good in a long or very tight barrel, however I'm using marker barrels which are 3.5 inches long and I can confirm that it is not the tight fit of the rod behind the dart that is improving the range because I used butchered stock darts as rods for the first few trials and still yielded significant increases,

I don't think it was mentioned before, but back when I was using marker barrels, I think every brand was slightly telescopic. So even using bits of stock darts you'd be getting a better seal at the base of the barrel. You might find that it works nearly as well to just cut the tops of the markers down a 1/2 in so the dart can reach the end of it. Obviously if your markers are perfectly straight it's not an issue, but it might be worth checking out.
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#18 Edible Autopsy

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 02:39 AM

Sch. 40 barrel+Taggers=win. No questions asked.

Edited by Edible Autopsy, 31 October 2010 - 02:40 AM.

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