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Double +bow

Two times the fun!

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#1 Whisper101

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 07:29 PM

Before I begin this writeup, I have a few shout outs and comments I'd like to make. If you hate reading long prefaces and are more interested in the actual writeup then fine, but I'm gonna say this anyway because I think it's important.

CREDIT:

Captain Slug: For inventing the +Bow, the L+L CS, and for answering all my questions when I first began making homemades.

Louiec3 and Rogue: For coming up with the Double L+L and also for answering my questionsof which I have a lot.

McMaster Carr: Do I really need to explain why?

Split: For the discovery of the skirt seal

CaliforniaPants: For his idea of using O-rings to seal the hex bushing.

Lt. Stefan: For selling me some of his super special PVC.

Cheesypiza: For turning me onto wood handles by posting his wood handled L+L in the homemades picture thread.

Ben: He's a bit of a lurker on NRev but he did say this in response to the Double L+L:
"Wow all you need to do now is make a +bow version haha"........I hope he sees this.


Explanation:

This gun began to take shape in my mind just after Louie posted the Double L+L and Ben made that comment. +Bow catches and L+L catches are very similar and I thought that I could adapt what Louie did to fit the L+L's badass brother the +bow. I say catches because that's the key point to this gun, how the catch and firing mechanism is configured. I was right; the hardest part of the process was getting the templates right. That took some time and was frustrating as hell. After that it was smooth sailing though, just like making a regular +bow, with a few of my own personal tweaks of course! Now without further adieu, I present to you the Double +bow writeup.

1) Print out 2 sets of +bow templates, cut them out.

2) Grab both of the catches, front catch plates, back catch plates, the four sideplates , as well as all four front frame pieces

3) Combine the templates like so:
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Here are the dimensions:
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And now more clearly and detailed (I apologize for the crudely edited pictures. I do not have a CAD program at my disposal):
The front frame piece (you’ll obviously need 2):
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The side plate ( again you’ll need 2):
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The catches:
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The front catch plate:
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The back catch plate:
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Those are all of the pieces that need to be modified. Any hole with a black X through it is one that I did not drill.

4) Now paste the templates on the appropriate polycarbonate pieces and cut them out.

4.5) For the second front frame piece and the side plates you can trace the piece that you already cut out onto
the protective film on the polycarbonate with a sharpie. Cut that out then line the two pieces up and use the holes that you already drilled in the first piece as a guide for the holes in the second piece.

5) Assemble! This assembles exactly like an ordinary +Bow except for the catch/fire mechanism, it just takes longer, but not twice as long as you might think! See the link to Captain Slug’s writeup in the Links section below. I have included as many in process building pictures as I can.

Here’s how the catch/firing mechanism works:

There are 2 catches. One is pushed down by a compression spring like in an ordinary +Bow. The other is held down by an extension spring like in an L+L. The extension spring is anchored both to the bottom catch as well as a hole drilled and tapped into the grip. If you were to think of the grip as a backwards L shape, you know, above where you hold the piece, the hole is drilled into the bottom of the L. If you were using a polycarbonate handle, you might think about popping an extra ¾’ machine screw through the handle to anchor the spring. The bottom catch is just tall enough so that I can prime the top gun and fire it without the bottom one being primed, I can prime the bottom gun and fire it without the top gun being primed, or I can prime both of them and shoot them in rapid succession or fire the bottom gun, walk around, and then fire the top gun. Think a double shot on lots of HGH and without the break action barrels and a lot, well, better in every way.


A list of the pieces that you will need TWO/double the amount of:

-IMPORTANT! A strong extension spring of some sort. I used ACE #71.
-[k26] spring
-Hex bushing
-12” polycarbonate tube
-2” 6-32 bolt
-6-32 lock nut
-Your choice of plunger head ( traditional dry washer, skirt seal, or grommet)
-13” plunger rod (1/2” nylon round bar or other. I used 3/8” nylon square bar.)
-Plunger tube cross
-¾” 6-32 bolts – you’ll need a total of 8
-#6 screw size Nylon washer- you’ll need a total of 16
-E-tape – you’ll need double the wraps
-ACE #61 O-rings if you choose to enhance the seal with them ( I did. )
-PATIENCE
-TIME
PICTURES!!! I’ll try to explain them as best as I can…
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That’s right Louie, you’re not the only one who can do custom side plates!
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The plunger rods: I used 3/8” nylon square bar because I had it on hand. It is very durable and I have not seen any signs of stress whatsoever. I changed the handles up as you will need to as well because the regular handles will not fit.
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PICTURE LIMIT-DO NOT POST

Edited by Whisper101, 23 July 2010 - 07:37 PM.

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#2 Whisper101

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 07:33 PM

More pictures of the plunger rods…
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The plunger heads: I used two skirt seals sandwiched between 1/8” and 1/4” polycarbonate circles.
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The bushings: I wrapped them in E-tape and then super glued them in. I then sealed it with goop and E-taped over that so it would be purty. I am also using 2 ACE #61 O-rings to help seal the bushing.
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Another view
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PVC foregrip: optional, but highly recommended!
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Wooden +Bow handles are da bomb!
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A good view of the extension spring
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Various pieces of the gun
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Back catch plate
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PICTURE LIMIT-DO NOT POST

Edited by Whisper101, 23 July 2010 - 07:37 PM.

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#3 Whisper101

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 07:35 PM

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Full body shot
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Trigger
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Everything but the stock
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Before making this gun, when planning my objectives for the build, I decided that rate of fire was irrelevant to me. This is because with the invention of the hopper clip and the fantastic way that they work on high powered guns, there really wasn’t much to do in the way of improving the ROF short of buying a mill and machining a certain groove in a certain ½” X ½’ aluminum square bar *cough*ryan*cough*. Ha ha, no. What I mean is that this gun has a tiny boost in ROF in that it can fire two consecutive primary-worthy shots before reloading, but hopper it and I can have the same or better ROF than everyone else, just like everyone else. Make sense? I guess what I’m trying to say if you didn’t buy the aforementioned mill then you + high powered blaster + hopper clip=just about everyone else in terms of ROF. ROF is really not very different in a hoppered BBBB than in a hoppered +bow.
After that nice little spiel, here’s something that I just had to do.
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Yup, that’s a PVC/CPVC breech X 2. It’s basically two breeches connected with a 1”X 2” piece of Polycarbonate with a stub of ½” nylon rod for a handle. Both breeches are 100% airtight and use 5/8” OD O-rings to make the seal. Both breech slots open at the same time. I like it. A lot.
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Open
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The handle
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Useful links:

- Captain Slug’s Original +Bow Writeup: http://www.captainsl...m/plusbow2.html
- +Bow DIY thread: http://nerfhaven.com...showtopic=10521
- Louiec3’s Dr. Frankenstein: http://nerfhaven.com...;. Frankenstein

Last words:
I’m extremely happy with this gun. If you don’t like it well, then, you’re not my friend (anyone get the Talladega Nights reference??!?!). No but really, I like it, it does what I want, it’s damn comfortable, and not nearly as ungainly as I thought it would be. Plus, instead of one primary shot and then one backup on the gun, I now have two primary shots! Next step is to buy a mill and make it pump action!!! I kid, I kid. The gun has given me some rather sinister interesting ideas though….

And because I know you guys will ask for ‘em, ranges. Upwards of 100 ft. A lot contributes to this I think:
-reduced plunger mass/weight
-skirt seal
-holes in plunger tube are a tad smaller than 5/32, 9/64 I think
-Use of o-rings to help seal
-combo of goop, e-tape, super glue, and more e-tape to seal in the bushing.

I sincerely hope I have accurately conveyed the nature of this gun and the various processes used to make it and in the process helped others to better understand it and hopefully someday replicate and improve on it.
Questions? Comments? Name ideas?

(YOU CAN GO AHEAD AND POST NOW)

Edited by Whisper101, 23 July 2010 - 07:38 PM.

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#4 TED

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 07:52 PM

Why not just make a regular plusbow with a hopper?
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#5 Whisper101

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:09 PM

Because I just made TWO regular +Bows in one gun that can both be hoppered. I don't have any wyes.
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#6 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:13 PM

Why is this better than building two normal +bows and giving one to a friend?

Also, with the forcibly linked slide breech, you're basically taking twice the effort to fire half the effective shots.
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#7 SonReeceSonJensen

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:13 PM

VERY well done, sir. You could easily put a hopper on top and an RSCB under. Or, you know, two elbows and then another hopper on bottom.

This is Ab Fab for sure. Supertits, even.
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The Difference:
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#8 Lt Stefan

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:27 PM

If the whole point of this build is a higher ROF, why would you link the breeches? That way you can't reload one barrel while you are firing the other.

Nice job on the gun overall, by the way.

Edited by Lt. Stefan, 23 July 2010 - 09:15 PM.

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#9 KaneTheMediocre

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:33 PM

Nice work on the double bow, but the breeches are just stupid. Put a pair of hopper clips on it, or at least make the breeches clip-fed.
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#10 Soothsayer

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:01 PM

Holy fuckin' shit that is beyond over kill, but I approve full heartedly dude. Great fucking work.
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yeah I'm that guy who made that cool thing with the cool paint.


#11 ChaosRaisin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:29 PM

Great job dude! I think it looks pretty badass being so big and all. I love how it says "Um... Rigid" on the PVC you used to make the foregrip. >_<
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#12 Whisper101

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:34 PM

Zorn: This is better because you can combine yourself and your friend. I'm not sure you are understanding the fact that there are TWO +Bows in this gun that can be primed and fired separately. Besides, none of my friends Nerf.

What the hell are you talking about in terms of the breech? You open it, load a dart or two and fire. I'm not even breaking a sweat!
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#13 Abyss Mods

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:40 PM

This is so overkill, and completely awesome! I like the double breeches since you're probably going to shoot this one shot after the other then reload.
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#14 Lt Stefan

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:02 PM

What the hell are you talking about in terms of the breech? You open it, load a dart or two and fire. I'm not even breaking a sweat!


Except, correct me if I am wrong, but you can't load the barrels independently, correct? Theoretically you could always have a shot ready with this system if you got rid of the linking mechanism.

Shoot Barrel 1, prime/load bar. 1. Shoot bar. 2, prime/load bar. 2.

If the breeches are linked:

Shoot bar. 1, shoot bar. 2. Prime/load bar. 1, prime/load bar. 2.
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#15 Whisper101

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:56 PM

I think I see where you are coming form Lt. You are saying that if the breeches were not linked, I could load breech one, fire it, and while I'm firing load breech two? Then while I'm firing breech two I could reload breech one? I see how that could work but the gun is a bit much to hold with one hand. It would make the stability and overall accuracy of the gun go waaaay down.

Thanks guys for all of the comments and ideas. I really do appreciate them.
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#16 cheyner

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:07 PM

What the hell are you talking about in terms of the breech? You open it, load a dart or two and fire. I'm not even breaking a sweat!


Except, correct me if I am wrong, but you can't load the barrels independently, correct? Theoretically you could always have a shot ready with this system if you got rid of the linking mechanism.

Shoot Barrel 1, prime/load bar. 1. Shoot bar. 2, prime/load bar. 2.

If the breeches are linked:

Shoot bar. 1, shoot bar. 2. Prime/load bar. 1, prime/load bar. 2.


What makes you think that every time he open's the breach he has to load a dart in BOTH barrels? There is nothing to push the dart up when the breach is closed, so clearly its not going anywhere. If it wasnt linked, then it would take longer. This way, if he needs to load both at the same time, it is still one motion.
Edit: Whisper replied while I was typing. I think this still applies though, because how often do you shoot and reload at the same time?

Edited by cheyner, 23 July 2010 - 11:13 PM.

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#17 Whisper101

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:11 PM

Why couldn't I have explained it like that!!???!??!
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#18 Split

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:41 PM

I don't think you are understanding the comments, whisper and cheyner. In a war situation where you're getting rushed, if the breeches aren't linked, you can have one shot ready to go at all times (primed and loaded). If it is linked, however, every time you go to load one of them, they're both not ready to fire (breeches will both be open), and you're completely defenseless. It's just a practicality issue. There seem to be a bunch with this project in my opinion.

Also, you can't fire the guns separately, like you said you could. You have one trigger that shoots the bottom then the top, and that's all it does. You can never fire top before the bottom. To fire them independently, you need to have two triggers or some sort of mechanism to switch between catches.

Edited by Split, 23 July 2010 - 11:42 PM.

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Teehee.

#19 PVC Arsenal 17

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 12:03 AM

Double +bow! Woah that's so intense! Woah oh my God oh my God!

On a more serious note: I have to agree with the people before me who said the breeches should not be linked. There is no sustained RoF gain here, at the very least you're increasing the probability of getting a hit due to two fast, back to back shots but at the cost of longer reload time than an ordinary +bow. I'm sure it'll have its place in some situation, however. Nice build regardless. I've always liked these but refuse to make one of my own until I have the equipment to do it neatly.

Edited by PVC Arsenal 17, 24 July 2010 - 12:15 AM.

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#20 Fome

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 12:09 AM

I'm not sure why so many people are being so nitpicky about the breech, it's obviously an optional attachment.
Besides, with a small revision, you could easily make it so that the breeches could be opened individually or linked in case you get rushed by Flash Gordon.

Also, this gun is cool as fuck. Great job whisper.

#21 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 01:53 AM

Also, this gun is cool as fuck. Great job whisper.


"Cool as fuck" and "useful in a nerf war" aren't always the same. In fact, a lot of the time they tend in opposite directions.

If you're going to build something this bulky and slow-priming, you might at least put hoppers on it.
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#22 Fome

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 04:37 AM

If you're going to build something this bulky and slow-priming, you might at least put hoppers on it.


I'm not seeing your point.
There's no reason you couldn't use it as a normal +bow.

People have been bulking their guns for years with various integrations, many performing with the same purpose in mind, providing one or more "backup shots" in quick succession from the primary shot.

Some notable examples from notable nerfers:

CaptainSlug
Guru Mk.3
Senor Wences
BOB 2

Forsaken_Angel24

Crooksbow


Ice Nine

The Ultimate Doubleshot

Louiec3

dt3

Atomatron

Violet Lightning



Etc. You get my point. This includes every crossbow with an airtank integration, every +bow with a lnl stuck underneath, and basically any gun with another gun strapped to it. It may not be completely practical as simply having a powerful, high ROF gun to begin with, but being able to "double tap" quickly does give you a different dimension to your play.

Ripley strapped a flamethrower to her pulse rifle in Aliens 2, and that was cool as fuck and practical.

#23 Whisper101

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 06:58 AM

Split: I kinda see what you mean but think about it, if both guns are primed you fire the bottom then the top. You can certianly prime the top alone and fire that without ever having to prime the bottom. I thikk what you are saying is when getting rushed wiht linked breeches you CANNOT: load 1, prime1, fire1/load2, prime 2, load1/fire2....

Next point: Breech. Stop arguing about it. As Fome said, it' an optional attachmnet ant can be detached in about 3 seconds. If the general consensus is that it is impractical, someone send me two wyes ans I'll hopper the guns!

PVC arsenal: read the part about the ROF in the original post. Then read above.
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#24 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 09:18 AM

There's no reason you couldn't use it as a normal +bow.

There's no reason to use a "normal" +bow when you can strap hoppers on them.

I entirely agree with Zorn's argument:

"Cool as fuck" and "useful in a nerf war" aren't always the same. In fact, a lot of the time they tend in opposite directions.


Now... if you're going for "cool", then linked breeches have a certain charm to them. People seem to be missing the important thing, that "fun factor" that a weird gun brings to wars. Effectiveness is not always the end goal ;)

Nice job on it, reardless. Looks fun :D
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#25 nate the great

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 09:31 AM

Great job Whisper, looks great!

To all the flamers: Whats wrong with it? Most people have intergrated a blaster to a blaster before and it's very effective in a war. So think of this as a +bow intergrated into a +bow. What's not effective about that?
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