14 replies to this topic

[Dastardly]

Original Thread and Numbers

Discussion to follow.

[VACC]

Anybody who uses an insult as an argument in this thread is going to take a 1 month time out. Enough people have said this won't work. If that's your opinion, consider yourself accounted for. If you'd like to prove or disprove the validity of this idea, test it out and post your findings here.

[Dastardly]

To address Ice Nine's equation as posted earlier:

It isn't that I disagree with it in principle, and I certainly understand it. It's that it's such a beast to measure all that stuff--I'm not seeing the simplicity. And you'd still need to lay out specific criteria for "How come this round is capped at 35 instead of 40?"

What I'm proposing--you measure range. Other than that, you count darts. You add some values together. Ta-da. While your system appears on paper to have fewer data points to account for, there's less measurement with this one--and you still end up with a number that comparatively rates blasters.

Also, I was shooting for a system that takes the human element OUT of measurement. If you can fire-prime-fire faster than another guy, that's to your credit... it shouldn't change how the blaster is classified. That's why I've also declined to include reload times/methods. Let that be a place where skill can go unchecked.

Yes, I've used this in SMALLER gatherings. Not a lot goes on in my area, and we keep pretty tight work schedules. However, I contend that the reason this has worked for us isn't because the group is small--it's because we communicate about it BEFOREHAND, so all the work is done before day-of. And it's easy-to-use numbers, so there's no question about fairness. That's how any system like this ought to work. Handle it before the event.

[VACC]

I thought I'd coment here quickly. This formula has one hole in it, which is exposed as soon as you compare a speedloaded, or hopper clipped blaster to its singled counterpart. Let's assume, for this example, that a hopper clip does not decrease the range of a plusbow at all.

Score (Hopper Clip +bow) = [(7 darts)/(7 seconds)] * (150 ft)
Score (HC +bow) = 150 d*ft/s

As a hopper does not improve the rate of fire of a single shot (the time taken to prime and pull the trigger once), we can assume that the same +bow, singled, would have a 1 second firing time.

Score (+bow_singled) = [(1 dart)/(1 second)] * (150 ft)
Score (+bow_singled) = 150 d*ft/s

This implies that the hopper does nothing to alter the value of the +bow.

Now compare the singled +bow's score to the +bow with a speedloader:

Score (+bow) = [(two dart speedloader)/(four seconds)] * (150 ft)
Score (+bow) = 75 d*ft/s

The speedloader actually decreases the value of the blaster. If I'm not missing something obvious, I don't see how this works.

[Ice Nine]

To address Ice Nine's equation as posted earlier:

It isn't that I disagree with it in principle, and I certainly understand it. It's that it's such a beast to measure all that stuff--I'm not seeing the simplicity. And you'd still need to lay out specific criteria for "How come this round is capped at 35 instead of 40?"

What I'm proposing--you measure range. Other than that, you count darts. You add some values together. Ta-da. While your system appears on paper to have fewer data points to account for, there's less measurement with this one--and you still end up with a number that comparatively rates blasters.

My point was that your system offers ample opportunity confusion, especially under the rate of fire category. Your system requires a range measurement, as does mine. Variances in firing rates are not very high for the majority of guns (even JLego can prime an RF20 in the example values I provided) and qualitative measuring data for both sets is nearly identical.

Caps are pretty easy to explain under normal rulings. In Chicago our pistol rounds are sixty five feet and under, because that's what a generic Nite Finder shoots. I just translated that under the points scale.

One last time I'd like emphasize that I'm not endorsing my system over yours; I'm emphasizing that there isn't really any need for this system. Armageddon has been excellent ten times with the normal institutions, and other wars even longer.

I thought I'd coment here quickly. This formula has one hole in it, which is exposed as soon as you compare a speedloaded, or hopper clipped blaster to its singled counterpart. Let's assume, for this example, that a hopper clip does not decrease the range of a plusbow at all.

Score (Hopper Clip +bow) = [(7 darts)/(7 seconds)] * (150 ft)
Score (HC +bow) = 150 d*ft/s

As a hopper does not improve the rate of fire of a single shot (the time taken to prime and pull the trigger once), we can assume that the same +bow, singled, would have a 1 second firing time.

Score (+bow_singled) = [(1 dart)/(1 second)] * (150 ft)
Score (+bow_singled) = 150 d*ft/s

This implies that the hopper does nothing to alter the value of the +bow.

Now compare the singled +bow's score to the +bow with a speedloader:

Score (+bow) = [(two dart speedloader)/(four seconds)] * (150 ft)
Score (+bow) = 75 d*ft/s

The speedloader actually decreases the value of the blaster. If I'm not missing something obvious, I don't see how this works.

Fair enough. I figured incentives (from round caps) would mean that one would try to minimize the score on guns while keeping gun war usable. A singled +bow would then be allowed in fewer rounds than a speedloader +bow, so why use a single barrel?

[Dastardly]

I appreciate that you don't perceive a need, I really do. And I don't presume that anything I say negates your experience. But from what I've seen on this board, other people discussing this or that, it seems to me like there are others who DO see a need for there to be something.

So, I didn't see anything wrong with putting an idea out there that could do just what they're looking to do, since I wasn't able to find a similar thread--hey, maybe I just didn't search right. So, please understand, I'm not trying to convince everyone to use this. I'm just trying to gather input from a variety of sources to make this system as accurate as possible for those who WOULD use it, outside myself and my buddies.

Now, regarding the formula:

Without boiling it down to a formula, we encountered exactly what VACC is talking about when deciding what to use as criteria. We decided that we needed to account for the number of darts loaded, and that this value shouldn't be reduced by the rate of fire. Actually, what was said is "just because you can empty a magstrike in 2 seconds doesn't mean it's not still 10 darts."

But, like your equation, we also decided that RELOAD time should be left the "x factor." If you have a more efficient way to reload, and you can bring extra clips/darts/etc this round, then that is YOUR SKILL providing you an advantage, and it's fair play.

Under the system I've presented, the HC+bow would have a higher capacity than the singled. Might not be much, but it's an increase. The speedloader would fall in between, depending on how many barrels you managed to cluster together.

But the other thing VACC's critique shows is what I was getting at--the human element can be fudged.

If I want to make the claim "Hey, I prime this weapon slower, so that means my dart/second is much lower," I can introduce as much variance as I want... or I can at least argue it.

You're exactly right that rate of fire is where my system is most nebulous, and I figured that's where most of the tinkering would need to be done. Rather than trying to pin down an exact rate of fire, though, I'd rather just try to pin down the approximate relative advantage of various firing mechanisms. If you rig your full-auto to fire a little faster than mine, go for it. If you can pop darts out of your "bolt action" longshot as fast as I can slam fire my raider, you da' man.

While my system is a little tricky to balance at first, it is pretty damn easy to use. It was balanced for what we have available, but I knew we'd need to tweak the numbers once I posted it here.

[TantumBull]

For the rate of fire issue, maybe instead of calculating x darts per minute, maybe assign values to commonly used barrel set-ups that improve rof. I'll list a few just to give you an idea.

Rscb, hopper clip, angel breech or equivalent plus n-strike clip, angel breech or equivalent plus drum mag, speed loader, turret (eg at2k), coupler turret (eg bobafan turret), breech, inline...

This could eliminate people arguing over their guns exact rof as you either have one of these setups or you don't.

Edit: I can't right now, but I could certainly post actual value proposals and how exactly they could factor into your score.

Edited by TantumBull, 23 February 2010 - 08:40 PM.

[Dastardly]

To what degree do some of those guarantee a different rate of fire, though?

For instance, nothing mechanical changes between using an N-Strike Clip and a Drum Mag in a longshot. It still takes the same amount of time per shot. Basically, I'm taking "rate of fire" to mean "time between shots," not "total number of darts per arbitrary unit of time."

An RF20 has no time between shots... but after those 20 shots, it'll take you maybe a minute to reload. So, if you measure in darts per SECOND, it's way up there. If you measure in darts per minute, not so much--you could beat it with a few N-Strike clips and a recon. Which has a higher rate of fire?

I ask seriously, because I'd like to know if I'm misusing terminology that commonly has a different meaning here. My "rate of fire" intentionally doesn't take into account the SUSTAINABILITY of that rate. All of that comes into play with capacity, which is an easy-to-judge number (ie, you count the darts). This is for 2 reasons:

1) It allows player skill to be the x factor. If you're faster at reloading than the other guy, that's YOUR advantage, not the blaster. No rule should keep you from using all your SKILL--that'd be akin to telling someone they have to "shoot worse" this round because they're just too damn accurate for it to be fair.

2) It creates balance overall. You want to use the high-ROF blaster for this mid-level round? Okay, as long as you're not using that super-clip you fashioned out of bamboo and coconuts. If you want the hilariously large clip, you'll need to go with a slower firing weapon for this round. With the equation above, capacity is part of the equation, but it doesn't accurately impact the result.

[canuck]

sorry disregard

Edited by canuck, 24 February 2010 - 04:00 PM.

[durka durka]

1) It allows player skill to be the x factor. If you're faster at reloading than the other guy, that's YOUR advantage, not the blaster. No rule should keep you from using all your SKILL--that'd be akin to telling someone they have to "shoot worse" this round because they're just too damn accurate for it to be fair.

Besides, how would you calculate reload time? After all, it is different for every person. I like how you let this be an advantage. It reinforces that a noob with a wonder weapon can be outdone by an experienced nerfer with a basic primary.

As Tantum said, you need set numbers to keep this rof as simple as possible. You could do assign each type of barrel set-up a set value, but you would have to be pretty thorough, as there are a lot of different types.

Also, rof is much more of a factor with higher ranges. 1 dart every 2 seconds (a hypothetical stat) would be many more times effective at 100' than at 30'. Just a thought.

This debate will only be truely settled when it is tested.

[TantumBull]

I made a hiccup with the drum clip thing. Forgot you had a different capacity category.

Your x-factr thing isn't making sense to me. How is the difference in reload time between a hopper clip and a singled barrel accounted for by a dfference in player skill? It's a difference in the blaster's effectivenss, which is what this point system is tryng to reflect.

Edited by TantumBull, 24 February 2010 - 08:38 PM.

[Dastardly]

The difference between the hopper clip and the single barrel comes in the capacity, not the rate of fire. While I understand the hopper-clipped blaster is, in fact, able to put more darts downfield faster, that's a compromise I was willing to make to avoid clouding the system with 42 different barrel/turret/loader types and assigning a point value to each.

We let capacity deal with that, and just keep "rate of fire" deal with the firing mechanism itself.

What I mean by the "x factor" is this:

a.) Guy with a hopper clip
b.) Guy with single barrel

Guy A loads 6 darts in his hopper clip and goes to town. Guy B keeps a bunch of darts on a bandolier, because he likes the look of it. Guy A uses his weapon very well, and throws 6 darts at the opponent in a short amount of time, and now he has to reload/switch clips/whatever his setup allows.

Guy B has practiced with his single barrel, and he can get a dart in, prime it, and send it off in a scant second. While the first 6 darts clearly show Guy A the winner, Guy B can sustain his rate of fire longer, since he doesn't have to worry about reloading anything but the single dart.

If Guy A brings more clips, that adds some points as well (depending on the game rules). Guy B, however, doesn't get more points added for just having more darts (or picking them up off the ground). If Guy B sucks at reloading, that's to his detriment. If he's quick about it, it becomes an advantage. The game in no way penalizes him for being able to reload-prime-aim-fire faster than another guy.

The way we decided on the rate of fire stuff makes sense overall, though it's not as math-oriented as some people would prefer. This was for sake of simplicity. Basically, here are the things we considered under "rate of fire":

1) How fast does the BLASTER put darts downfield? One per prime? One per trigger pull? Many per trigger pull--all at once, or in a stream? The faster it works, the more points.

2) How much of the work is done by the BLASTER rather than the player? Does the player have to place the dart in and prime? Does the player just have to prime and fire? Does the cylinder rotate itself (I go with turret only because it's the most common name)? The more work done by the blaster, the more points.

3) How prone is this mechanism to jamming? THIS is why turrets are scored a liiiittle higher than clips. I've never had a turret jam on me (slip, yes, but I fixed that). Clips, in the heat of the moment, do it a bunch. So, since the turret does the "work" of keeping things a bit more jam-free, I tacked a few points on there.

That's how we developed those categories. There's variance within each category, and we knew that when we did it. But we figured simplicity trumped die-hard accuracy in the case of extreme outliers.

Edited by Dastardly, 25 February 2010 - 08:51 AM.

[VACC]

You're better off not accounting for these things at all until you actually get some face time with one of them. The fact of the matter is, a well made hopper with a quick valve should be able to be reloaded as quickly, if not more quickly, than a single barrel. You don't have to load the full capacity to use the thing. You can just load a single dart if you like. Besides, in the wars where hoppers would be used, the capacity of the thing is more than large enough for any individual firefight. The downside to them is their slightly uneven range as the clip is depleted, but that is something for the range calculation to account for.

Point is, I understand what you're saying, but it's inaccurate in actual use. I think the better explanation is that you, or anyone for that matter, simply cannot fairly evaluate a device until they've seen it in action.

[Ice Nine]

Guy A loads 6 darts in his hopper clip and goes to town. Guy B keeps a bunch of darts on a bandolier, because he likes the look of it. Guy A uses his weapon very well, and throws 6 darts at the opponent in a short amount of time, and now he has to reload/switch clips/whatever his setup allows.

Guy B has practiced with his single barrel, and he can get a dart in, prime it, and send it off in a scant second. While the first 6 darts clearly show Guy A the winner, Guy B can sustain his rate of fire longer, since he doesn't have to worry about reloading anything but the single dart.

If Guy A brings more clips, that adds some points as well (depending on the game rules). Guy B, however, doesn't get more points added for just having more darts (or picking them up off the ground). If Guy B sucks at reloading, that's to his detriment. If he's quick about it, it becomes an advantage. The game in no way penalizes him for being able to reload-prime-aim-fire faster than another guy.

I'm sorry, but from this it is painfully obvious you've never seen a hopper clip in action.



As I've said, a +bow with a hopper clip has the ability to put ten darts one hundred and fifty feet away in ten seconds and be fully reloaded in another ten. They're brutally efficient boosters of ROF.

I made the video to promote darts but it's definitely serviceable in showing the difference between a single barrel and a hopper clip. With a flap valve or check valve on the end of the clip section, it's far easier and quicker to reload than even a speedloader, especially considering you don't have to alter the aiming position of the gun.

I'd like to reiterate what Vacc said here, because from a lot of the stuff you've said is pretty indicative of it: this system would be a lot better off if you had experience with the systems you're scoring. I don't want to be presumptuous and assume you haven't been to an NIC war, but I've been to a fair few and it seems there's incongruences between the grading system you arrived at and the field presence of many of the guns out there.

Edited by Ice Nine, 25 February 2010 - 09:22 AM.

[Dastardly]

Hoppers are one of those things we just haven't used. Never got into them. So, I agree that I've probably got some misconceptions on the "best practices" for hopper use. I think that warrants re-investigating what category they are in, sure.

All I'm trying to avoid is having to create a separate category for every single kind of loader. If hopper clips nearly qualify as semi-auto, we could put them there, even.