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Base Defense Cannons, And You

Impact of design styles on a game

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#1 Zero Talent

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Posted 03 March 2003 - 10:12 PM

So, my friends and I are planning on meeting two days over the next two weeks (we're quite busy), and are communally making two large air cannons, for use as base defense cannons in a large-scale game of Capture the Flag. We can probably only get about 12 kids going for the war, maximum, so it's not going to be all that fun, but we'll do what we can.

I was pondering the different designs we could use, and what their impact would be on the war itself.

The three popular designs right now are either:

- Dual-barrelled, Semi-automatic (according to an air-actuated breech design I'll release upon construction), long-range, with an imitation kick-back from the air actuation (Fun is good, and the inaccuracy may be a neccessary limitation).

- 7-barreled (7 valves, one trigger), Semi-automatic air system, manual loading (Essentiall a long-distance buckshot cannon).

- Single-barrelled, Semi-automatic air system, firing a tethered "remote detonation" explosive shell (To be detonated over the heads of targets).

So far, I'm getting the most sway towards the dual-barreled, semi-auto design, for obvious reasons of coolness. However, I'm worried that this will make the game a bit uneven, and the bases nigh-impossible to penetrate. The 7-barrelled would be the most limited, due to a manual reload, but the users may be at the mercy of those with semi-automatic weapons similar to the first cannon described above. The mortar may not achieve it's job of base defense, as the projectile, for safety reasons, must be detonated at least 5m over the target's head, and thus could be avoided.

So, I'm wondering what you guys would suggest for a design, for a two-team, Capture The Flag, One-hit kill game, with combatants centrally armed with one-shot, long distance rifles, in an area with relatively good, though not too dense of cover.

And hell, what gun would you prefer?
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#2 neonerfer

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Posted 03 March 2003 - 11:36 PM

I'd choose the dual-barrelled, semi-automatic just for the sole reason of being badass. If you are worried about it being unfair, try making it to shoot balls! They're easier to work with and probably a lot easier to obtain than darts. You could make it shoot ping pong or nerf balls. The balls are slightly less accurate and travel slower, but the ROF would probably go up and you could have a greater payload. It would probably be easier as well, you could even use a motor if you so desired. And the loading mechanism would be nearly identical to a paintball one, just on a much larger scale.

The second design seems like it would be the only one that would work with darts because the reloading/ammo/ROF aspect of it would make it more like nerf. I wouldn't want to use this gun because it just doesn't seem like it would be much fun.

The third design is out of the question for a base defense in my mind. A mortor is valuable, but not the type of thing you would want as your only defense for a base. It's more a blow-holes-in-the-enemy's-flank type of gun than the kind of protective turret most people would like.

The first design definately appeals to me, and if you think you can encorperate darts into it in a couple of weekends then go ahead, I can't wait to see it. I personally think that use of ball ammo would be much more effective and fun for those participating in the war.
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#3 Zero Talent

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Posted 03 March 2003 - 11:51 PM

The first design definately appeals to me, and if you think you can encorperate darts into it in a couple of weekends then go ahead, I can't wait to see it. I personally think that use of ball ammo would be much more effective and fun for those participating in the war.

Oh, it's going to be darts, no question about it. Shells flying out the bottom are just... Fun. I want something that has a long distance (>90ft PTG) shot, while at the same time being good for taking out groups, or at least very intimidating (Low chance of not being hit).

Oh, and it seems like the feel of this thread is in the "I don't believe you can do that" kind of atmosphere, so here's an animated gif of the breech system I'm using:

http://www.geocities...fied/Breech.txt
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#4 neonerfer

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 12:13 AM

I didn't doubt you for a second...I knew if I did, I'd be shut down with a smooth 3d animation. ;) That system looks pretty inmpressive, the only thing I was doubting was if you could get such a project done in one or two weekends. Looks like you know where you're going with this, so I'm gonna support the first design with your breech system, using darts, of course. I can't wait to see the finished product(s) or even a diagram. Zero, you're way ahead of me...
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#5 Mantis

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 02:23 PM

Dude, the animation makes it so much more badass.
IMHO though, it would be the best. Just imagine it, a gaggle of kids running up to the base defended by only 2 men. They look at each other, one with dual RF20's, the other manning this behemoth. The two nod, turn, and open fire.
Soooooo badass.
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#6 Raecroft

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 05:05 PM

Cannons? Pfff I'm working on making a nerf catapault(trebuche actaully can't spell it tho) the idea being that I could launch darts, nerf balls (practice golf balls?) and anything a long enough to make a defense but not high enough range to make it horribly unbalanced ;). The only problem, a bitch to reaload but ulta-cool..especially if you have H2H in the war....*medievil battle with nerf H2H and catapaults* *drools*. Oh and the semi-auto dfouble barrell bitch..wicked.
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#7 WebbZter

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 05:11 PM

I had to build a working model trebuchet for my history class. Use this as a resource: http://members.iinet...ne/gctrebs.html

They study historical trebuchet drawings and replicate them. In my opinion, a treb would be too impractical (both counter-weight and traction types). You'd get much more out of a sling (I believe there are diagrams of slings on the above mentioned site too).

Zero, how do the spent shells get ejected?
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#8 Zero Talent

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 07:51 PM

Zero, how do the spent shells get ejected?

I personally wouldn't want a trebuchet over a 2-barreled semi-automatic turret.

As to the animation, there are 3 key things missing (Find them all! ;)). First:

Piston Return: I'm getting this to work off either pressure from a temporary tank in a semi-auto valve, or a spring. I'm leaning to the temporary tank pressure, as the barrel could remain semi-sealed for so long as the trigger is held back, so the dart has enough time to leave the barrel. Yeah, it would be piston-powered. I just left it out because it would obscure the breech.

Intake hole: A cut in the top for the clip to fit into. Yeah, laziness on my part. I don't like cutting pieces out of pipes on G-max, though.

Eject hole: What you're looking for, Webb. Shell goes in, piston pushes forward, pressure from the piston keeps the shell in place, when pressure is let up as the bolt comes back, the shell is allowed to fall down into the hole, ejecting. The next shells also help in this action, allowing this system to have a spring-loaded clip.

I don't want to say too much before I actually make the breech.
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#9 Frenzied fury

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 06:14 PM

Talking on the catapults, why not use an onager? It would be easier in my opinion.
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#10 DarkCow

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 06:38 PM

The way your animation looks, its almost like a chainblazer. You know, you pull it back, after a certain point the thing comes back up, and then the air is released.
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#11 Zero Talent

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 07:39 PM

The way your animation looks, its almost like a chainblazer. You know, you pull it back, after a certain point the thing comes back up, and then the air is released.

Except in this case, the air pressure does it all.
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#12 merlinski

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Posted 06 March 2003 - 11:01 PM

I'd go with the mortar. If it happens to knock somebody down and puncture a lung, even more reason that they should be out.

Seriously though? A cannon that is semi-auto and ejects shells out the bottom would be so incredibly bad-ass that people would be afraid to go near your base just because you're so much cooler than them. Seriously, I mean, the thing will look like a fucking ma-deuce (M2 .50 caliber mounted machine gun), and be nearly as devastating. The only thing you could do to make it cooler would be to mount it on a humvee, and drive over the guys who are paralyzed by fear.
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#13 Zero Talent

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 01:36 AM

...The only thing you could do to make it cooler would be to mount it on a humvee, and drive over the guys who are paralyzed by fear.

Well, my friend does have a jeep...

Yeah, design plans are pretty much down, and I worked in some barrel kick, on the request of my friends. Now, to see if the beast actually works...

The main problem now is the air source. Obviously, it's a huge tank. But since the turret's going to be on an omni-directional monopod turret, I'm wondering where a tank that large should go... Backpack? Ground? Part of the monopod? Part of a swivelling seat built into the turret? Yarr. Even worse, what will we use to pressurize it? A few hundred pumps from a tire pump, after running out of the initial pressurization, would be pretty taxing... Parks aren't great for air compressors, either. I guess it will have to be a 2-man turret operation, and air efficient as possible.
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#14 merlinski

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 03:48 PM

Wait... monopod? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that, but I don't think it would work if you only had one support leg. I would go with a tripod so you can leave it unattended for a second without it falling to the ground. For a tank, It'd depend on the size your thinking. If its huge, I'd say just put it next to the turret on the ground. What barrel length are you thinking right now? If possible, you should use a fairly short barrel and preferrably try to shorten the length of each air burst, as to make it more efficient and require less power to get it out of the barrel.

I have to say, anything less than a belt-fed clip system coming from an ammo can would be a dissappointment. And I'm looking for at least 600 rounds a minute. ;)
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#15 PhoenixFlame

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 04:56 PM

IF U MAKE IT, THEY WILL NOT COME

well, I want 1 so if u make it MAKE INSTRUCTOONs
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#16 Langley

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 08:50 PM

I don't know how you could get such a thing, but my grandfather has something that looks just like a propane tank but it's a bit smaller and blue and has different fittings on it. He has it connected to an attatchment for a tire stem valve for tire inflation (thus containing compressed air instead of propane). Mabey you could attatch a big 3-4" x 36" regulated tank to the swiveling part of the gun and you could refill it from the heavier more pressurized metal tank when it runs out. If that sort of thing can safeley inflate a bicycle tire without bursting it, I'm sure you could pressureize a PVC air tank without overpressureizing it. (but you may want to put a safety valve on it from spudtech.com)

Or, if you wanna do something really crazy that requires the defending team to work for their badass defence cannon, get a couple of junked exercize bikes and bolt bike tire pumps to the pedals (or to a cam powered by the chain of such a bike) This would be very team-rocket-esque ::curses self for using pokemon reference:: but it would cause the teams to use at least two people per cannon, if not several people in shifts.
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#17 Vassili

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 08:56 PM

A big stationary bike pump pumping constantly wouldn't be able to fire all the darts off, you would need a pumping, then firing time. This would be good because it would be transportable, though.

If you attached it to a jeep, then you could have the rotation of the wheels power a pump or have it power a air compressor. That would be really hard but really cool.
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#18 Langley

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 09:02 PM

Well yeah, there would have to be delays in between volleys of nerf darts for the pumping. The bike would just refill the tank. It would also be cool to have some way of taking an enemy turret. If fair and simple rules could be developed, then you could have entire battles centered around who controlls which turrets.

This thread just gets more and more rediculous. Groove has to write a comic about this.
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#19 Zero Talent

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Posted 07 March 2003 - 10:11 PM

I think I'll just stick with the tire pumps, but I'll just get multiple Tire valves going, for multiple pumps. As to the monopod, think wide bottom. Yeah, if I could get some kind of big plastic barrel for air pressure storage, that'd be great... Perhaps we can jack a few water barrels or something from a local industrial complex...
As to the jeep... Yeah, no. Municipalities don't like getting their parks ripped up by poor driving, and we don't like getting run over by large vehicles.

Otherwise, as I said, I'm making two, one for each base, for flag defense. The tanks should be able to store enough pressure for a little over 90 shots at a good distance (No regulators, can't find, haven't tested my homemade design), before pumping is necessary for proper pressurization.

Anyone with big letters on their cheesy white uniform, who also call themselves villains, I like to avoid imitating. No excercise bikes for us. If I can get these tanks in barrel format, we could just roll them to a close-by air compressor, and repump. I'd prefer not to have the compressor right next to the gun, though, for obvious entertainment reasons. I should have a 3D model and such very soon, need to for the other guys to understand what they're building. Sorry Merl, but it's going to use rectangular clips. Magazine size to be decided, but I think 50 per clip would work well enough. Sorry, no chain for you.

Maybe if we get a more local, large area that we own, we could do the jeep thing... Could be incredibly fun, in a Halo-esque kind of way (I also apologize for my somewhat unoriginal reference).
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#20 merlinski

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 06:12 PM

50 per clip? That's an insanely tall clip. How do you plan on making those handle-able?
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#21 Vassili

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 06:26 PM

Zero, what are the shells going to be made out of? It would take forever to cut 50 shells out of brass! Crayolas? CPVC?
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#22 17yellow

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 10:56 PM

How Big is this turret? and How big is your fort?and Last what is your fort made of. Me and a friend are trying to get some more people at school to get into nerf. They think nerf is for wimps,but if they saw this turret they might change there minds so when you make a animation of it put it on here so I can show them.
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#23 Zero Talent

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Posted 08 March 2003 - 11:02 PM

1/2" CPVC, and for the clip size, no idea. I haven't really thought of clip size too much... I could make some kind of shell hopper or something... You're right, 50 would be insanely long. 14-20 is a more workable number. It's a semi-automatic cannon, after all, so it's not going to be going through shells all that fast...

The model's still on the way... I've been a bit busy today (I'm learning basic electronics! Go parallel circuits!). I just need animate it, and make it look pretty, unlike it's current form... Well, I can grab a quick screenshot for ya:

http://www.geocities.../Cannoncrap.txt

I'm thinking big body tube, to hide the ugliness, and allow the proper connectors for a two-axis turret.

Oh, and as to the fort, we don't have a fort. We just have two turrets, two flags, big open space, with token trees, creek, hills, and a bathroom building... Not a big fort person. I got enough of that out of my couch. ;)
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#24 Cadmond

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Posted 09 March 2003 - 03:10 AM

'tis pug fugly.. and yeah, short clip. and does air have to travel down that tube? the long one? to get to the barrel that is? if so, . ..uh.. might not be as great.
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#25 Zero Talent

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Posted 09 March 2003 - 05:16 AM

'tis pug fugly.. and yeah, short clip. and does air have to travel down that tube? the long one? to get to the barrel that is? if so, . ..uh..  might not be as great.

When I told the guys that "Sweet barrel kick" would require a tiny sacrifice, I meant about 10ft or so. But hey, we have that "sweet barrel kick," plus, if I downgrade the Semi-auto valve to a basic valve, this thing is fully automatic. Not sure how I missed that one, but apparently, with a return spring, as opposed to an air-actuated return, this baby is fully automatic (With standard "Nerf" range restrictions). How fun. So, we have the same technology allowing a slower, but longer range semi-automatic weapon, and a faster, but lower range fully-automatic weapon. Very fitting. On the other hand, I have different fingers.

...Oh, and I guess the mandatory update picture:

http://www.geocities...gleonesmall.txt

[Image problem... Geocities or NH?]
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