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Do You Hate The Riaa As Much As I Do?


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#1 Oroku Saki

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 11:06 PM

I'm sure a lot of you hear alot of stuff in the news of the RIAA suing file-swappers. I hate hearing about the record companies screwing over consumers. Their business practices need to be reformed to become more reasonable for smaller record comapnies, artists, and consumers.

I know I might be ranting, but please bear with me. It seems that the large record companies are trying to het a hold of a monopoly on the entire music industry, controlling what is put out, which explains a lot of the shit music that is being played on the radio. I'm not saying that I hate all newer music, but in my opinion, I have gotten to the point where I don't care as much about what comes out in mainstream music anymore. I support file sharing, because it lets the general public find out about new artists and music styles, instead of the cookie-cutter Brittany Spears bullshit that is polluting the airwaves.

For those who want to fight ths system of corporate music created purely for profit, (and help bring better music to light) I would like to share this website with you.

http://downhillbattle.org/

Edited by Oroku_Saki, 26 February 2004 - 01:16 AM.

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#2 Cadmond

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 01:11 AM

I hate all of them really. You see, there is a system in place, one which we probably will never change, that requires you to have money to live. Yeah, live, and this is a fact, whether you believe it or not. Even pan-handling is a way of making money. So you see, the musicians do need the cash. And they need the attention. But also, they have to make money, not the industry leaders. After all, this is their writing, their playing, their time. Usually... But there is another problem, the abusers. Who are the abusees? Why, the musicians. And we're trying to help them? See, there needs be regulation. Hell, even GOOD sampling systems set up would satisfy both sides (not the amazon.com CRAP they hand out.) It's abusers vs records labels. And who really really loses in the fight? Music. Poor kid of ours. Why, we should get child services to take them to a foster home.. or something.

To simplify and restate

Sampling = Good
Stealing = Bad
Nazi = Bad
Music = Good
Poor starving musicians = Bad
Amazon sampling system = Very bad
Saying you have nothing better to spend 10 dollars on because you can = bad
Paying more than 10 dollar for a cd = stupid

C'mon kids, do your bloody research.
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#3 Nello

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 01:52 AM

I'm going to do a little comparison here between Artist A and Artist B. Artist A is main stream rapper 50 Cent, who's album "Get Rich or Die Tryin" made him 18 million dollars in 2003. Artist B is Ska Band Crowned King, who most of you have never heard of. Crowned King do not live in lavish mansions with 20 some odd washrooms (not kidding there, 50's house has some obscenely large amount of washrooms) and they do not have fleets of cars in their driveways. Now answer me this question: If we are going to be downloading music in the first place, who will it affect more? Crowned King, or 50 Cent? 50 sure ain't starving, but Crowned King will if people download all their songs.

I guess what I'm trying to say through this is that I don't have a problem with downloading a few rich artist's songs, but once you've downloaded 2 or 3 of their songs it is time to go fork out your 15 bucks Canadian for their album. I also believe that nobody should be downloading songs done by less known artists.
Note: It usually bothers me when people say, "Don't download music. Artists need your money." They need it like a porn star needs clothes! 18 million dollars is a hell of a lot of money! I understand if they're telling you not to download a song you heard at a local rock show Saturday night, but go ahead and download a couple of 50 Cent songs, decide if you like his stuff, and then either buy the CD, or stop downloading his music.
Thank you and goodnight.
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#4 Oroku Saki

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 02:59 AM

Thanks for your input, guys, but have you actually READ the articles at the site? The main point that I see on this is that the record companies are screwing over both the artists AND consumers, simply because they won't let independent labels and artists let their music be noticed by the general public. Here are a few of the articles that I find interesting (some of the links I found aren't necessarily on the site, but they are linked form there.)

Problems with iTunes

http://downhillbattl...unes/index.html

Courtney Love on Record Labels

http://dir.salon.com...love/index.html

Record Label Contracts

http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

How music really gets on the radio:

http://www.salon.com...5/pfp_congress/

Please people, read and be informed before you make conclusions.
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#5 Talio

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 03:20 AM

Alright you theives. Let me give you a lesson in what we call freetrade market.

First off, we have supply and demand. They have the music, you want the music. So guess where your getting the music from. Next, we have artists. Yes an srtist is concerned with money, we all are. We all have to eat, sleep and play x box. So guess what, the more money you can make, the more comfortable your life will be, the less work you have to do. Ultimately, anyone not working as a nurse, teacher, or social worker is doing their job for entertainment/money. Don't knock my balls around about that point, yes their are other reasons and other jobs that you don't work for money...now do me a favor and shut the fuck up about it, I'm making a point.

The point is that in a society such as ours, it revolves around money. You work to get it, you spend it to get things you want. This is the way it works...You don't like it, move to China and be a commie.

Now, with that said, the music industry is a business. Artists do not have the means to make an album that will release worldwide, and be marketed correctly so that they can sell the records. So we have business that do that, and use top of the line equiptment and the best producers in the feild to ensure that your sound is as flawless as it should be. Once again, I said should be. Yes music doesn't have to be perfect, but you know what...just shut the fuck up.

So now who do we have here. First we have the artists, then we have artist managers, then we have rodies, then we have producers, costume designers, tour managers, project managers, janators, cleaning ladies, hookers, drug dealers, liquor stores, caterers, AR representitives, exec's, ceo's, owners, investors, stock holders. And that's just to name a few. All these people are going home at night and putting food on the table with money coming in from the record companies. So add that up for one album and what you get is a shit load of money.

Now all these people have a common goal, get more money. Which there is nothing wrong with, it's how our society functions. If you don't like it, your a commie. So you get online, and just steal an album. You save 10 bucks, but thats ten bucks less that the record company is making. Do that over a couple million times, and what you have is a serious decrease in profit.

So here's how it works. If the companies keep making less and less money a year, eventually business men are going to start looking for other work, with more profit. This means less resource, which in turn means that you will see quality or quantity decrease. Now lets say a good number of record execs after ten years of the same shit, with decreasing profits, just stop and move onto something else, what you will get is a bunch of record companies going out of business. So, that means, less music. You still with me. Now if your going to cut the number of business in half, your most likely going to significantly drop the number of units being produced. Therefore, it will become harder for new bands to get deals. Now if your one of these remaining execs who are struggling already, tell me, who are you going to keep? 50 cent raking in a shitload of cash on each album or Fuck your Yankee Blue Jeans that sells maybe a handful of copies?

Now, even though that is an extreme case, none of you have any right to bitch about bad music. Bad music is selling right now. It sells easy. So record companies are loosing profit. What are you gonig to put out? Shit that sells. Your catching on.

So the moral is, the more you steal, the more shit your likely to hear. I'm not even going to get into the moral issues, cause you know what your doing, your just a bunch of fucking theives.

Now onto a personal thrashing. Oruku, your a fucking moron. First off, define monopoly. There are almost 80 different record companies in this world, so fuck you, thats not a monopoly. Thats like saying you don't like phone companies cause their the only ones providing phone service...dipshit statement. Second...Independent Labels? WTF? In the music industry they have a word for independant musicians....they're called waiters. They are independent cause people don't fucking buy thier music! 50 cent sells, get over it for fucks sakes. Shit AC DC is one of the most rockin' bands ever, and they got a record deal, cause it sold at the time. Well, it doesn't sell anymore. If your pissed off cause it's hard to make it in the music industry, then you just need to be beaten. Stop stealing, your a fucking theif, I hope your get sued.

To the rest of you, I won't just blantantly rip into you. It's fucking wrong. Your getting a product that you would normally have to buy, just by clicking a couple of times. And those of you stealing movies. You are the worst. You well I will verbally bash....I hope you die a slow and horrible death and rott in the seventh ring of hell for an eternity.

That's my opinion. I really don't care if you like it or not. I'm just going to give you a little motivation to do whats right.

CONNOR: Now you will receive us!
MURPHY: We do not ask for your poor, or your hungry
CONNOR: We do not want your tired or sick
MURPHY: It is your corrupt we claim
CONNOR: It is your evil that will be sought by us
MURPHY: With every breath, we shall hunt them down
CONNOR: Each day, we will spill their blood, 'till it rains down from the skies!
MURPHY: Do not kill, do not diddle, DO NOT STEAL. These are principles which every man, of every faith can embrace.
CONNOR: These are not polite suggestions. These are codes of behaviour. And those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost.
MURPHY: There are varying degrees of evil. We urge your lesser forms of filth not to push the bounds and cross over - into true corruption, into our domain.
CONNOR: But, if you do, one day you will look behind you, and you will see we three. And on that day, you will reap it!!
MURPHY: And we will send you to whatever God you wish.

Your freindly neighborhood viking,

Talio.
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#6 Oroku Saki

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 04:22 AM

Thanks for your opinion, Talio. I am sorry for some of the one-sided things that I posted in this topic. I must point out, however, that if you do some research, you will find that there are more than just 80 record companies out there.

I don't promote piracy. Many people think that file sharing is piracy, but it depends on whether or not it is used responsibly. In my opinion, if you go out there on Kazaa, and download some Metallica or AC/DC, or anything else obviously copyrighted, that's piracy. Free downloading is in the grey area in terms of copyrights and ethics, but I believe that may change in time.

Hell, I even admit that I enjoy some of the stuff they put out, but they can do better. The thing that pisses me off about the big record companies are how they are controlling the media to the point where they kick away any other smaller competition, allowing little, if any, new music to be heard by other people. Yes, money does make the world go round, but the larger record companies have too much power over society.

Legally, the record companies are not considered a monopoly, but in my opinion, they are monopolizing on artistic expression.

My stance is that the media is becoming too controlled by corporations that have grown too large. I admit, I believe that file sharing is a factor in declining record sales, but it is not the only factor. Has the record companies actually released anything truly revolutionary in the music industry? Not really, and what about our economy that has been going down the shitter over the past few years? That doesn't help anybody. The corporations have a serious problem on their hands, and they are taking the wrong steps to solve them. I think that they should clean out their corruption, and care more about the consumers and artists, rather than taking most of the money for themselves. Suing their own customers only make the problem worse. The RIAA is doing this as an excuse to ignore the real problem with the industry, which is the fact that they are not willing to change with the times, and embrace new technology.

They should accept and implement new music innovations and technology to improve their relationships. I only wanted to share some good information to read, and to help keep people informed. I didn't want to create any rivalries or anything.

Edited by Oroku_Saki, 25 February 2004 - 05:02 PM.

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#7 merlinski

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 08:39 PM

You can't get away from large corporations. It's basic economics.

The more music you want to sell, the bigger your company has to be. If you want to sell music in upstate New York, you can be pretty small. If you want to sell music in all of the Northeast, your company has to grow to include more outlets, which means a greater amount of cost, which means a greater amount of income is needed, which means a greater number of business relationships will be formed. So when you have multinational companies, you have to have a huge amount of income and influence. It's pretty simple. If you don't want big record companies that can influence what gets played on the radio, fine. But that means that you'll never get to hear that great band that happens to be situated half-way around the US, because the company can't afford to market their music in your neighborhood. Now, if you want to have the chance to hear that band, you'll have to give in to the nature of business, that is, people wanting to make money. You can't tell a record company that they can't overmarket their own bands, because then their own bands wouldn't get any exposure.

I personally download music but never download CD's and make a point out of buying the CD of any band that I like. The only reason I download music is to find out which CD I'll buy, so there is no net loss to the record companies or the musicians.
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#8 Cadmond

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 09:41 PM

Well, I think most of you arses are just being lazy. I remember my youth spent gleefully listening to the most OBSCURE crap I could find.. actually, I still do that. With the power of mp3.com (come back damnit!), IUMA.com, artist websites, forums, and everything I could get my hands on. The most awesome of these things had to have been internet radio, which pumps out things you won't ever have thought existed. The power there, is just enormous, because the dj (and there are many), actually understands they are dealing with art. It's like they're researching the stuff for you.

I would have to agree that alot of record labels are simply calling it money now-a-days, and somewhat throwing it around willy nilly. Seriously, there are lots of jobs you can be in not for the money, but for the cool things you can do, if you want to. But it's not always a given.

The people that have posted so far seem to be oblivious to the power of the internet. The very thing you're using right now! Because of it, I can buy cds from England no problem! And sure, you'll miss out on lots of music, because the internet hasn't really affected all regions yet, but the traditional way? You're just screwing yourself up the ass with the traditional way. Hell, you probably can't get out of english speaking countries with it. The new way, even comes with a low, low price, even with shipping. Less middlemen, really.

Also, on the topic of independent labels.
They've worked for me. They don't have to sell through bestbuy, or barnes and noble (talk about ripoffs) and they offer new, good music. They aren't in it for the money, the labels. Nor are most artists. Why?

Because it's art! They handle it with care. It's not something to get rich from, it's something to be heard, not something that needs a producer, label, industry, but just an audience. Christ people, we're talking about something that's supposed to be fucking beautiful, and you're more concerned with paying 10 dollars, than getting goosebumps.

Bastards aren't trying hard enough.

Edited by Cadmond, 25 February 2004 - 09:43 PM.

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#9 Oroku Saki

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 12:24 AM

Excellent points from the both of you. I am happy to see some good opinions on this topic. If we continue to support independent music, then we can simply ignore the other shit that is put out.

If we do this, then maybe the bigger labels will start to get the message that we are sick of the way they do business. If we spread this message to as many people as we can, then maybe we can force some changes in the systems. Obviously, a single person will have a very difficult time taking on whole corporations, but if consumers work together to help push some reforms on the current system, which has been used for decades, maybe the market will be determined more by consumers rather than overpaid record execs looking to fill their pockets.

I understand that labels need to make money too, but I feel that there is a horrible inbalance in the larger corporate systems. On average, a CD costs a record company only a few cents to press. Then they turn around and sell it to consumers for $14-$16. Who gets how much of the profits in the larger corporate labels? Depending on the contracts, usually $1 per CD goes to the artist, and the rest goes to the companies. For smaller independent labels, this cut is even greater for the artist, encouraging them to put out good music.

Technology costs are going down, making it easier and less expensive for lesser-known artists to record music, but how does the band get heard by the mainstream? For larger labels, they simply pay the radio station to play their music (payola). Since prices for payola are extremely high, this kicks out the smaller labels and artists because they cannot afford it, and keeps the bigger labels controlling the airwaves. Also, even though the larger record companies pay for music being played, the artists are still expected to pay them back, causing a greater cut in the artist's cut of the profits. If reforms are made to make radio more easily available for increased competition, artists will be happy, since they are getting paid more fairly, and customers will be happy, since they will get easier, better access to music. Internet sampling and music swapping are merely the initial dents that are being made to the old, overabused corporate systems. Technology is taking over, and will win in the end.

With these changes starting to happen, the older systems are beginning to crumble, while a whole new, better music industry rises from the ashes, and begins to flourish.

Customers are the lifeblood of every record company, and if we continue to push for reform, and boycott the larger companies, they will be forced to change to meet the demands of the people. When Congress originally introduced copyright laws, they were passed for the preservation of arts and science, not as a loophole for greedy people to make even more money.

If reforms are made in copyright law and the marketing practices in music, then this will leave even more room for competition, therefore introducing more diverse music to the mainstream. I am sure that almost everyone would be happy on seeing new innovations and styles in music.

And that is why I introduced the site in the first place. Who doesn't want better music? If we want to accomplish this, we need to do what we can to make changes in the system. Many people are joining this movement, and it's only a matter of time before the dents in the systems become serious rips, and eventually fall apart altogether.
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#10 Zero Talent

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 12:24 AM

Oroku, you pretty much have it, aside from the "music swapping," if you are referring to P2P exchange of copyrighted material. If you want what the RIAA offers, you play their game, or it's cheating.

[On Piracy] Reiterating what Cadmond mentioned, major record labels aren't a requirement for global distrobution. The problem is merely that many people don't understand where to access other music. If you want to change the current state of the music industry, go complain to someone who cares, and stop trying to justify breaking the promises you've made every time you buy a CD from a major label. That little isn't just there to look pretty.

[Purchase Alternatives] If you still want to listen to a band's music without recording it off the radio, try the smaller label they started on, or just go to their show/concert and buy a CD directly from them. If they've overpriced it, that's their decision, which means they suck just as much their big record label. Judging by how much you "hate the RIAA," it's only fair you hate them the same, and stop listening to their music out of principle.

If you don't believe in principle, you have no grounding in your arguments that the RIAA's "fascist ways must be stopped."

[Opinion] I don't know about you, but I don't listen to the Radio. Hard to find something I like. Internet radio, and networked artist sites are often a lot better. I'm just kind of sad that the current system of selling music is functioning on celebrity status. In my opinion, the ability to play a guitar doesn't seem enough of a constructive profession to justify making a living. I always though music was about expression, not working. Same goes for most entertainments. But the purchase does remain our choice, so it's not like it matters much to me.

Anyways, refute my argument as you will, because indeed, learning is what we're here for.

[Titled for convenience]

Edited by Zero Talent, 26 February 2004 - 12:40 AM.

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#11 Oroku Saki

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 01:55 AM

Hey, that's a reason why I posted this thread. I wanted to hear what oher people had to say about this whole situation. It helps us all learn and grow listening to the voices of others.

I liked what you had to say about most people not understanding where to access other music. I also agree with Cadmond. People are lazy in finding new music, and will take whatever they happen to run into, rather than just spend some time looking for what may truly interest them. Once you start looking around, believe me, a whole new world will open up for you. I find it exciting to find new things that I wouldn't find anywhere else.

The reason why I support peer to peer is the fact that it is creating the first dents in an old, corrupted system. I only use it to find out new music from lesser-known artists that I have never heard about before, and if I really like what I hear, then I go out and buy their stuff. I also support any other methods used to fight the current system used by large music corporations.

I also admit that me saying that the larger record labels having a fascist's agenda was a weak point to make. I am sorry for saying that, and have edited that post. The record companies may not be fascists, but I believe that they are making business unfair for the rest of the underdogs in the music industry, as well as for artists and consumers.

As I said before, the RIAA can do a better job of running things. Until I start seeing reform, I am boycotting their material, as I have been doing so over the past few years. I do not buy big-name music CD's, or listen to mainstream radio for three reasons:

1. I hate the fact that buying from a major label supports a company that sues working families. These people are usually regular people just trying to make ends meet. Having a corporation go out there and force consumers into bankruptcy is not only a bad, ineffective way to solve the RIAA's problems, but in my book, it is one of the most unethical things big businesses can do to consumers.

2. I do not like supporting a corrupt corporation who constantly kicks out any other smaller competition. With more competition, access to more diverse music becomes better for people. Opening up more competition will also pave the way for the underdogs to get the respect and recognition they deserve.

3. Very few things in mainstream media have impressed me. Most of it seems to be constantly rehashed marketing schemes, rather than new, truly original art. In my opinion, it is just becoming too ho-hum to really care about. Why would anyone want to continue supporting stuff like that?

Edited by Oroku_Saki, 26 February 2004 - 04:19 AM.

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