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Potting Trigger Springs

Science only - Dogma is not welcome

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#1 Wes7143

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 04:25 PM

Posted too soon. I still agree with Angel, though.

Edited by Wes7143, 21 February 2009 - 05:05 PM.

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#2 Glint

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 04:29 PM

Alright, a few things here. May I ask why you took an argument to a whole new post instead of continuing it in the thread (bad) or taking it to PM's (good)?

And this isn't really an argument at all for that matter. You haven't made any valid points or brought any factual evidence to the table to back up or counter anything Homestarune or FA_24 has said.

Why make a thread quoting FA_24 and just saying basically "No it's not true go fuck off"? The very least you could have done would have been to point out why what FA_24 said was wrong, and maybe even add in some arguments of your own.

This is completely void of point and reasoning. You didn't even explain the situation to those who haven't read Homestarune's post!
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#3 Draconis

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:01 PM

Alright, a few things here. May I ask why you took an argument to a whole new post instead of continuing it in the thread (bad) or taking it to PM's (good)?


Bob did the right thing here. This is a dispute which has come up a few times in the past, but hasn't really ever been addressed by itself. PMs gets the point across to one person, not everyone.

And this isn't really an argument at all for that matter. You haven't made any valid points or brought any factual evidence to the table to back up or counter anything Homestarune or FA_24 has said.



While this point has already been rectified, one could argue that sufficient evidence has not been presented on why Homestarune and Angel are right. All the evidence you really need the Bob is right is in the blaster itself. If the spring was not a better method of trigger actuation, then Larami and Hasbro would not have spent the research money on developing that design. They also wouldn't spend the extra money on installing those components in EVERY dump valve blaster they make. That is also why I am NOT surprised that Buzzbee doesn't. It's all about cost with them.

Edited by Draconis, 21 February 2009 - 05:02 PM.

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[15:51] <+Gears> titties
[15:51] <@Draconis> Titties.
[15:52] <+Noodle> why is this so hard?

#4 Pineapple

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:04 PM

What's particularly amusing, Bob, is how you seem to be hell-bent (pardon the expression) on trying to gain some sort of credibility on one particular element of modifying an air-powered blaster based on what you define as "dogma".

So what? Let them believe what they want! Urban legends notwithstanding, if they believe that gluing up the trigger spring will improve performance, let them!

It's impressive that you had an engineering degree in '81. I was still in high school at the time.

But measures of intelligence and substance of character are two very different things... and in this case mincing the "dogma" of glued trigger springs shows a obsessive-compulsive trait that I really think is counterproductive to the spirit of what NerfHaven was originally instituted for.


In other words, chill, Bob. Your input is appreciated but it need not go to your last word...or does it?


By the way, I've owned a bunch (seven, to be exact) SuperMaxx 1500s, and my last surviving one is my current primary. And guess what... I did NOT glue up the spring, for many of the reasons Bob said. I personally think that any performance gains by the "bic pen" or glue mod on the trigger are negligible at best; but for some, squeezing every bit of potential out is their goal, so more to them.

I don't think much about what the others do insofar as their choice to pot up their triggers, but I guess I don't let it annoy me to the point of making a public debate on the boards about it.


Modding my current 1500 was my choice, and I still pull off easy 80-90 foot flat shots with 8" of PETG in a flip-flop barrel arrangement, without blowing my tank (4 pumps).

Come to thinking about it, my "rental" SM 1500s (this is in 2002, AirTechs hadn't yet come on the scene) all had glued up triggers (new version). All the triggers broke from overzealous trigger fingers (pulling too "hard"). That's why I did so many 1500 integrations back then.



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<!--quoteo(post=209846:date=Feb 5 2009, 06:27 PM:name=boom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(boom @ Feb 5 2009, 06:27 PM) View Post</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
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#5 Split

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:06 PM

I do notice that the last edit to the first post is after Wes and Glint posted, so I don't know what they saw, but from what I see, you're explaining the physics behind both methods of linking the trigger pull to the valve pin, in order to dispel the idea that the "potted" method is better. Which obviously, could not help the NIC if it were over PMs.

Your reasonings are sound, though I don't have to tell you that, others should note.

The problem here is going to be the difficulty of having a more powerful spring. After some point (which will vary blaster to blaster [dependent largely on the valve spring], and pressure to pressure), the force to compress the spring will act almost exactly as the bic pen mod does, so we have an upper bound, as well as the obvious lower bound that the spring will fully compress before the valve opens.

These leave tight tolerances that the blasters' original engineers took into account to get the springs that are on them stock. Perhaps we could find the spring for the stock psi, via finding the stock spring constant, and proportioning it to the pressure that the overpressure valve kicks in (measured via gauge). And maybe we could turn those into mcmaster part numbers for the good replacement spring. I'm not sure exactly how much of an advantage the things would be though. I encourage you to experiment with it and post some results. Because if I can get 10-15 more feet out of the 1500, I'm all for it. But if you need to buy a $6+shipping pack of springs to get 5 feet, the line blurs.
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#6 bpso86

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 05:55 PM

I want to add real quick that the ONLY blaster that I own in which I did glue the trigger spring is my sm5k. Simply put, when I plugged the pump, the valve would close up again after the first initial burst of air, due to the spring that was still in place. This is the only gun that I have ever done this to, simply because it would not work without it. I haven't had any problems with it in the 2 years that I've had it, either.

For me, this debate is like arguing over whether apples or oranges taste better. It's all a matter of personal preference. If your blaster doesn't work well with one method, use the other. If it breaks, then it's your own fault. I mod all of my blasters in MY OWN WAY, not following some writeup someone posted on here step by step. It's good to get ideas from others, but come on people... stop blindly following them. You all have brains and modding skills, so just experiment and do it.
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#7 nerfnerd88

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Posted 22 February 2009 - 07:12 PM

This mod really depends on the gun and its modifications. There is definitely a fine line between whether it works or doesn't. For example when I first brassed my AT2K (Before Plugging the Pump) I used it with the spring and it shot great, then I glued it and the range decreased. I found that after plugging the pump the range was great with the glue. For experimenting I removed the glue and the range decreased. At that point I tried to re-glue but ran out of glue during the process and found that the half glued spring shot the best.

Physics.
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#8 that1dude

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 03:20 AM

Deja Vu. NerfOnline 2001 all over again.
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#9 Draconis

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 10:28 AM

This mod really depends on the gun and its modifications. There is definitely a fine line between whether it works or doesn't. For example when I first brassed my AT2K (Before Plugging the Pump) I used it with the spring and it shot great, then I glued it and the range decreased. I found that after plugging the pump the range was great with the glue. For experimenting I removed the glue and the range decreased. At that point I tried to re-glue but ran out of glue during the process and found that the half glued spring shot the best.

Physics.



Exactly. That is going to have the same effect as a stronger spring.
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[15:51] <@Draconis> Titties.
[15:52] <+Noodle> why is this so hard?

#10 Equilox

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 06:58 PM

Dear Engineer,
Basic science; shoot a gun with no modifications, two shoot the gun with one modification, three measure the change, four repeat one through three. Five repeat one through three. Six draw a conclusion.

If the Modification regularly produces different results, scientifically, it is effective.

This scientific method works in all disciplines of science, including engineering. Actual results always trump theory.
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#11 BendyStraw

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 07:45 PM

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong on this issue, but I must say this.

If there is a way that you handle the trigger spring that you think absolutely increases range and improves the air flow and the speed of the opening tank valve, why are you trying to make everyone else do it too?

Don't you want to retain this information as a way to gain an edge when playing against them?

I did some range-testing with my AT2k with the trigger spring there, and with the trigger hot glued to the metal rod that opens the tank valve. I noticed no difference.
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#12 Draconis

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 08:26 PM

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong on this issue, but I must say this.

If there is a way that you handle the trigger spring that you think absolutely increases range and improves the air flow and the speed of the opening tank valve, why are you trying to make everyone else do it too?

Don't you want to retain this information as a way to gain an edge when playing against them?

I did some range-testing with my AT2k with the trigger spring there, and with the trigger hot glued to the metal rod that opens the tank valve. I noticed no difference.


I can't speak for Bob, but sometimes it's just a matter of explaining a concept in a manner which allows everyone to understand that the world is indeed spherical, and does NOT in fact have elephants and turtles beneath.
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[15:52] <+Noodle> why is this so hard?

#13 Equilox

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 12:56 AM

You're entirely welcome to believe in phlogiston, for all I care.


Funny, smug but funny.

I find it rather rude and entirely unnecessary to PM copies of your post, with absolutely nothing personalized. Please never do it again.


My apologies if I offended you. I just wanted to make sure that you didn't blow me off as you so hastily blew off every one else who disagreed with you.

Edited by Equilox, 28 February 2009 - 01:26 AM.

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#14 CROW

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 01:34 AM

My little sister used to argue to me that apple juice is better than orange juice. I find this thread similar.
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#15 Draconis

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 01:45 AM

I pray this doesn't get me banned.


Being a software engineer myself, something I find fascinating is that -at this moment- your post count still shows as 3. There really can't be any question that this apparent quadruple post could only be a server error of some kind.



Does anyone remember how the board used to auto merge? Perhaps it's something that is set incorrectly now, and is auto posting instead of auto merging?
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[15:51] <+Gears> titties
[15:51] <@Draconis> Titties.
[15:52] <+Noodle> why is this so hard?

#16 Equilox

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 01:51 AM

My little sister used to argue to me that apple juice is better than orange juice. I find this thread similar.



It seems we have reached the end. Let's agree to disagree. I'm with you crow this IS getting a little pointless. It's just a disagreement blown way out of proportion.

Edited by Equilox, 28 February 2009 - 04:49 PM.

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#17 Draconis

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 12:28 AM

My little sister used to argue to me that apple juice is better than orange juice. I find this thread similar.



It seems we have reached the end. Let's agree to disagree. I'm with you crow this IS getting a little pointless. It's just a disagreement blown way out of proportion.



You say that, but YOU haven't actually produced any data or evidence whatsoever. You have posted what, four times in this thread? And haven't actually given any information other than your own opinion? Buzz off.
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[15:51] <@Draconis> Titties.
[15:52] <+Noodle> why is this so hard?

#18 Equilox

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 01:13 AM

My little sister used to argue to me that apple juice is better than orange juice. I find this thread similar.



It seems we have reached the end. Let's agree to disagree. I'm with you crow this IS getting a little pointless. It's just a disagreement blown way out of proportion.



You say that, but YOU haven't actually produced any data or evidence whatsoever. You have posted what, four times in this thread? And haven't actually given any information other than your own opinion? Buzz off.



Please forgive me for being rude but, where have you actually made any scientific contribution yourself? Other than supporting everything that Bob says, (this is not a 'lets bash bob post'. Despite what Draconis thinks I still hold Bob in the highest respect.) and appearing to follow the "dogma" he has set forth, you have chosen to single out the newest member on the thread and attack his seemingly harmless contribution to the argument presented. I assume this is still a thread to promote this continuation of a discussion. I have tried to convince Bob that I am right and he has done the same me. Seeing that neither of us will be moved from our position I am simply saying that I have chosen to respectfully disagree with Bob, nothing more, nothing less. My sincere apologies if my presence and perspective have caused you any grievances.
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"In my Zombie plan I use my arsenal of foam to fend of the hoards of the undead as I make my way to Canada....... good luck to you Simmons."

#19 Forsaken angel24

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 01:57 AM

I think everyone needs a little bit of a chill pill around here.

I have done much testing with this method since I discovered it. I have found that all of my air guns that share a similar tank to the AT2K, will have better results when the spring is glued solid or bic pen modded.

I don't care what scientific evidence or how many degrees disagree with me.
I have witnessed the changes with my own eyes and that is enough for me to believe in it.

I am not going to post in this thread again as it seems like it's going in circles.

I feel it works.
Others feel it doesn't.

To anyone deciding to try this mod:
Try it out yourself and see if you can tell the difference.

If it works for you, Great you learned something.
If it does not, Great you learned something.

Lets move forward and not get stuck on this little stuff.
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I don't get my kicks out of you,
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After what we had,
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#20 Shrub

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 01:41 PM

It works for me but I actually did when I saw someone else do it I believe maybe not. But It works and that's the truth other's result's maybe different/
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#21 Equilox

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 09:10 PM

Forsaken Angle is right. I have reacted in a childish manner. My apologies to Bob, Draconis and any other people I may have offended or insulted. My sincere apologies. I do not wish to be on bad terms with any member, I simply let myself get out of hand. Once again my apologies.
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"In my Zombie plan I use my arsenal of foam to fend of the hoards of the undead as I make my way to Canada....... good luck to you Simmons."


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