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Spring Adding?

scientificly what is the purpose?

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#1 Heedfulkiller

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 08:54 PM

I've studied extensively what spring adding does to help the gun...Nothing! If you want more power you need more cubic centimeters of air to go through the chamber and adding springs don't do that, it just makes it harder to prime

Edited by Heedfulkiller, 28 January 2009 - 10:57 PM.

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#2 Wes7143

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:02 PM

More springs=more power.

More power=quicker air release.

quicker air release=higher dart velocity.


Present your evidence before you go making claims.

EDIT: JSB, I believe you mean static friction vs. kinetic friction

Edited by Wes7143, 28 January 2009 - 09:03 PM.

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#3 k9turrent

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:03 PM

The addition of springs cause the pressure to build up faster than the dart can travel
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#4 Demo tay26

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:04 PM

EDIT:Never mind, tons of people beat me to it.

Edited by Demo tay26, 28 January 2009 - 09:07 PM.

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#5 Rogue Warrior

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:12 PM

But, I think what he might be aiming at is that on weapons like double plungered night finders, You could get more power by using 1 shorter spring as opposed to doubling up springs. This concept was proved by bpso86 on his rebel trooper blaster mod.

Wes you're right, but if you have way too much power, like a ludicrous amount, the darts velocity would quickly fizzle out because it is goiong so fast. It's like an airgun to a springer, airgun darts drop quickly but springer darts slowly fall to the ground.
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#6 neonpistols

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:17 PM

To keep it simple, adding a spring pushes the air out faster. Take a spring gun with only an AR removal and shoot it, then stick an extra spring in it and see the difference. Try it.
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#7 slowguitarman

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:18 PM

EDIT: JSB, I believe you mean static friction vs. kinetic friction


Dynamics is the study of moving objects, so dynamic friction is probably an acceptable term since kinetic friction is the friction generated when objects are moved.
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#8 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 09:58 PM

I've studied intensively what spring adding does to help the gun...

You don't need take our word - go out and try it, and see with your own eyes what a difference a stronger spring will make.

If you want more power you need more cubic centimeters of air to go through the chamber

No, you need the flowrate of the air to be higher, not the volume.
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#9 Applefury

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 10:15 PM

I've studied intensively what spring adding does to help the gun...Nothing! If you want more power you need more cubic centimeters of air to go through the chamber and adding springs don't do that, it just makes it harder to prime



Lolwut?


You mean that we've all been wrong all this time!? And the reason my spring added longshot goes farther then it did without the spring added is because somehow by adding the spring I increased the cubic centimeters of air going through the chamber? SWEET! I'm pro.

Note people he did say intensively, he could mean that he just went around and asked his friends in preschool if adding springs could make the dart shoot farther.

Your on the right track the right track though; A larger plunger tube is good but there is many factors to why the dart goes farther, and one just happens to be that the faster the air is released the more time it has to build a larger amount of pressure behind the dart to send it out faster.

I know you expected to be praised for finding out something so groundbreaking but.....maybe do extensive research instead of Intensive
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#10 analogkid

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 10:26 PM

Wes you're right, but if you have way too much power, like a ludicrous amount, the darts velocity would quickly fizzle out because it is goiong so fast. It's like an airgun to a springer, airgun darts drop quickly but springer darts slowly fall to the ground.

Generally, for "large" objects, when you double the velocity of that object, the air resistance is squared.
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#11 Heedfulkiller

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 10:54 PM

More springs=more power.

More power=quicker air release.

quicker air release=higher dart velocity.


No. Your missing the point its the exact same amount of air leaving the chamber if there is 150 cubic centimeters leaving the chamber, if you add a spring there will be the same amount of air going through.

And Just Some Bob: sorry about my vocabulary.
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"I BUILT A TACO, A METAL TACO!"
another quote from my little brother

#12 rork

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:06 PM

You don't get the (extremely basic) physics of spring guns, at all. Essentially, the plunger/barrel acts as a valve, with the dart forming the seal. The spring/plunger compresses the air behind the dart, and the compressed air shoves the dart out of the barrel. The faster the plunger stroke, the more the air column is compressed before the dart "breaks loose" and relieves the pressure. The higher the pressure, the faster the dart will be going. (This is also why springers like tight barrels.) Volume is only part of the problem.
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#13 Heedfulkiller

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:36 PM

You don't get the (extremely basic) physics of spring guns, at all. Essentially, the plunger/barrel acts as a valve, with the dart forming the seal. The spring/plunger compresses the air behind the dart, and the compressed air shoves the dart out of the barrel. The faster the plunger stroke, the more the air column is compressed before the dart "breaks loose" and relieves the pressure. The higher the pressure, the faster the dart will be going. (This is also why springers like tight barrels.) Volume is only part of the problem.

Another thing, the spring will go from point A to point B in the same time, as long as the spring is as long or longer then the plunger tube, it will be the same speed.

Edited by Heedfulkiller, 29 January 2009 - 12:03 AM.

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my little brother explaining a small dinosaur

"I BUILT A TACO, A METAL TACO!"
another quote from my little brother

#14 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:44 PM

The physics of a spring-powered Nerf gun:

Springs exert a force upon compression. The plunger head has a surface area.
Pressure = Force x Cross-sectional Area

So putting in a stronger spring is like pumping an air gun more. But what about the plunger tube?
Energy \alpha* Pressure x Volume

Therefore, stronger spring => higher pressure => more energy => dart exits with higher velocity.


*is proportional to. I am unfortunate enough to speak LaTeX fluently.

Edited by Zorn's Lemma, 28 January 2009 - 11:45 PM.

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#15 nerfnut23

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:49 PM

The air volume doesn't matter much, if a slightly smaller volume is released faster, it generates more pressure, firing the dart farther. Using a tight barrel is like putting a second PT linked to the 1st one in that pressure builds until the "breaking point" si attained, then bye-bye dart.
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#16 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:52 PM

The air volume doesn't matter much


Not true.

Compare the UrukHai bow (the compound-bow style one the massive plunger tube) to a SMDTG. One shoots a lot farther with a lot less effort.
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#17 Heedfulkiller

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 12:02 AM

The physics of a spring-powered Nerf gun:

Springs exert a force upon compression. The plunger head has a surface area.
Pressure = Force x Cross-sectional Area

So putting in a stronger spring is like pumping an air gun more. But what about the plunger tube?
Energy \alpha* Pressure x Volume

Therefore, stronger spring => higher pressure => more energy => dart exits with higher velocity.


*is proportional to. I am unfortunate enough to speak LaTeX fluently.

Finally a formula I can use. Thank you! a scientific argument.
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"THEY RUN AROUND, PLAY AROUND, AND EAT PEOPLE!"
my little brother explaining a small dinosaur

"I BUILT A TACO, A METAL TACO!"
another quote from my little brother

#18 minsc

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 12:03 AM

No. Just no. A stronger spring will compress faster. Do you understand any of the physics or anything JSB or anyone is talking about? If you release the same amount of air in 1/2 a second that you do in 3 seconds with a weaker spring, one is going to go a hell of a lot farther. If your argument was true, then I could get the same ranges that a person shooting a crossbow gets by slowly pushing the plunger forward.

If you still don't understand, oh well. It's your loss when you get picked off at 50 feet by someone with a nitefinder.
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#19 Draconis

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 01:10 AM

Seeing as how this poor kid is from Portland, I must take this moment to apologize for the current state of the Oregon school system. I keep voting to keep the funding for schools, but all of the fucking deadbeats on welfare and the hippies who love them don't want to pay the taxes they require. You know we actually have a law that requires surplus tax money to be kicked back to the citizens? How fucking stupid is that? Instead of saving for new programs, expanding the existing programs, or simply saving in case of disasters... we demand the money back, even though we shouldn't get it. If it were not for the very successful Oregon Lottery system, our kids would be completely fucked. That's why my kid goes to private school, even though I can't afford it.

Heedfulkiller, you need to quit now before you look like a bigger idiot than you already do. I would be happy to explain everything to you over PM or email, AIM, whatever. Just stop with the ruckus, mmkay?
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#20 SchizophrenicMC

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 12:32 PM

When you add a spring, more potential energy is stored. This is because you now have two devices storing it, with more total capacity than a single spring. When the springs are released, they release the potential energy as kinetic, mechanical energy. Ok, so, that's the really easy, 6th grade science class part. Now, a bit harder: Since you have 2 springs, both want to release their energy as fast as possible. Both move more quickly because each other is pushing. It's like you trying to push a box, and your buddy comes along and you both push and the box moves faster.

Now, to why this applies.

As the springs move the plunger forward, air is moved with it to push the dart. If this air is moving more quickly, the dart will move more quickly. Every action, right?

So, in essence, what has been said multiple times as of yet: More springs => More speed (CCs of Air per second) => more dart speed.

A bigger plunger will help, as will removing obstacles, like air restrictors.
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#21 Heedfulkiller

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Posted 29 January 2009 - 07:34 PM

Screw this topic! I understand know!

And Draconis: the Portland Public School district is in the TOILET.
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"THEY RUN AROUND, PLAY AROUND, AND EAT PEOPLE!"
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"I BUILT A TACO, A METAL TACO!"
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#22 nerfnut23

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 12:57 AM

The air volume doesn't matter much


Not true.

Compare the UrukHai bow (the compound-bow style one the massive plunger tube) to a SMDTG. One shoots a lot farther with a lot less effort.


You took that WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of context, I said a SLIGHTLY smaller(BBB and LS, AT2K & AT3K kind of thing.) volume of air moving faster produces more pressure than a slow-moving slightly larger volume of air. And an SMDTG has tiny tanks, and an Uruk-Hai bow puts out a ridiculous amount of air. So, that argument blew up in your face. It is the reason that a 2K shoots farther than a 3K.
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#23 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 01:34 AM

Airflow delivery and what you call "pressure" is independent of the volume of the plunger tube in a spring gun. It is relative to the ratio of cross-sectional areas between the plunger and the barrel.

Furthermore, you argument doesn't even make sense regarding air guns, because those are powered by tanks already at a fixed pressure, rather than pressure buildup by a moving piston (plunger head). The physics between a spring gun and an air gun are similar only in that they use air to push out the dart.
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#24 Quilan Fett

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 01:42 AM

In spring guns, it is my understanding that the biggest factor (after a certain point) is plunger weight. Look at the SNAP. Huge volume, massive springs, and yet it is still outranged by stock guns like the x-bow, some longshots, and pump shotguns. Why? The plungers are made out of minimal amounts of light plastics. Not the full tubes of PVC we use in homemades. Want a mathematical formula?

Acceleration = force mass

The larger the mass, the larger the force must be to get the same acceleration.

Acceleration is one of the biggest factors in range, because the plunger only has a very short time to push as much air as it can behind the dart before it leaves the barrel.

This is why the +bow gets such good ranges. It uses a very light plunger, like most stock guns.


Now, the relevance to this thread is this: The volume is not the issue. It is the weight of the plunger.
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#25 Draconis

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 03:22 PM

This is why the +bow gets such good ranges. It uses a very light plunger, like most stock guns.

Now, the relevance to this thread is this: The volume is not the issue. It is the weight of the plunger.


But that is NOT everything. Plunger mass affects how quickly the pressure builds, and ultimately the peak pressure. Pressure is also affected by the the volume, based largely on the area of the plunger head and the stroke length. The longer the stroke, the greater the peak pressure, but the slower the build.
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[15:52] <+Noodle> why is this so hard?


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