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And multiple tanks to a single pump

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#1 TimmyTown

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 11:17 PM

So I want to integrate a gun into another gun, crazy huh?


I am planning on making a Mavelous salvo (as I believe it is called) At the moment.

However I want to use the single titan like pump. (the gun I am putting it inside is very similar to a titan). So I bought T connectors and such and I was wondering if I could just hook up one both airtanks using a T valve. This is really my first serious work with air guns, and by that I mean completely changing tubing, so I do not know what problems this may cause.

The pump IS plugged if that makes any difference. Can I just pump until I cant pump anymore? The way I see it is that if too much air is in tank A, then all the air pumped after that would go to tank B. And as soon as its too hard to pump all tanks are full?

If this would create a problem, you know like exploding air tanks, range inconsistency, etc etc please let me know.

Of course this is with a Marvelous Salvo http://nerfhaven.com...topic=11927&hl=

Posted Image

EDIT: Quick Paint image added in case you are confused

Edited by TimmyTown, 13 September 2008 - 03:17 AM.

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QUOTE(rork @ Mar 16 2009, 05:30 PM) View Post

I, too "have recon," as they say. I get him in old country. Then I realize he sucks like bog. So I trade him for potato.

#2 Norther of Heaven

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 11:26 PM

Pictures would help alot.
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#3 TimmyTown

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 11:29 PM

Pictures would help alot.


Not if you know what I am talking about. Plus I cant find my camera cable ANYWHERE. I ahve no idea what in the hell happened to it.

I am just asking if you connect a pump to 2 different airtanks if any problems would arise.

One is a titan airtank (well pretty much) and the other is a Big Salvo airtank triggered by the SMDTG trigger.
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QUOTE(rork @ Mar 16 2009, 05:30 PM) View Post

I, too "have recon," as they say. I get him in old country. Then I realize he sucks like bog. So I trade him for potato.

#4 chefdave

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 11:33 PM

It should work, but I don't think the titan tank and the salvo chambers operate at the same pressure, so..... something might explode.
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QUOTE(VACC @ Jul 21 2009, 08:13 PM) View Post
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It's a distinct possibility. But seriously, that's all you could come up with? You are a terrible Troll.

#5 Norther of Heaven

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 11:34 PM

Alright alright.
I've never thought of that, but i'd assume that the 2 air tanks you connect should be the same for equal air pressure distribution with the pump. But hell if i know, never attempted this before.
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#6 keef

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 11:38 PM

Well, I was talking to Splitlip about attacking airguns with a firing pin (as in 2k, titan, 3k, etc...)

As I just tried out, with a SMDTB trigger and pump connected to 1 titan tank, 1 3k tank, and 1 2k thank, 50 pumps got me half full on the 2k... So with a bigger pump it would be faster.

But, with it at 50 pumps, when you press the detonator trigger, it would seep out the trigger end of the SMDTB trigger.

But when you reprimed (pumped) and pulled each firing pin, it would release air. So the concept of standard airguns connected to a SMDTB work. I have not tried a Salvo/ Hornet tank and pin based tanks together on it though.

I hope this helps,
-keef
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#7 TimmyTown

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 12:00 AM

Well, I was talking to Splitlip about attacking airguns with a firing pin (as in 2k, titan, 3k, etc...)

As I just tried out, with a SMDTB trigger and pump connected to 1 titan tank, 1 3k tank, and 1 2k thank, 50 pumps got me half full on the 2k... So with a bigger pump it would be faster.

But, with it at 50 pumps, when you press the detonator trigger, it would seep out the trigger end of the SMDTB trigger.

But when you reprimed (pumped) and pulled each firing pin, it would release air. So the concept of standard airguns connected to a SMDTB work. I have not tried a Salvo/ Hornet tank and pin based tanks together on it though.

I hope this helps,
-keef


Hmmm I am not ENTIRELY sure what you just said. Air, fire, and water all take the path of least resistance. Which means whichever tank has less pressure in it gets more air. I guess this means that the Titan tank would only fill up to about the same pressure as the Salvo mini tanks combined if my theory holds true. And actually thinking through this if the Salvo tanks were full and the Titan tank to the exact same amount of air as the salvos air would go into the titan tank. Seeing as how even though the air is the same the Pressure is different in each tank right? Of course not of this is certain and thats why I need your help. I think I will PM Captain Slug seeing as how he seems to be the best at custom air tank rigging.

I think the best bet is to just try it I guess! Sluggy did something similar in this mod: http://nerfhaven.com...hl=volley titan

But seeing as how he created a valve system it doesnt really answer my question.

Edited by TimmyTown, 13 September 2008 - 06:15 PM.

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QUOTE(rork @ Mar 16 2009, 05:30 PM) View Post

I, too "have recon," as they say. I get him in old country. Then I realize he sucks like bog. So I trade him for potato.

#8 Draconis

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 12:34 AM

Yes, this will work fine. However, you will probably want to add a check valve to the section with the Titan tank, so that firing the BS barrels doesn't siphon of air to equalize the pressure. This may not be required, considering the recent insights in to the inner workings of the SMDTG trigger's design.

Pressure, in this context, works like so:

All pathways receive the same pressure from the pump. The pressure will continue to build uniformly in all channels. The only way this would be changed is by blocking off or evacuating one of the channels.
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[15:52] <+Noodle> why is this so hard?

#9 TimmyTown

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 01:07 AM

Yes, this will work fine. However, you will probably want to add a check valve to the section with the Titan tank, so that firing the BS barrels doesn't siphon of air to equalize the pressure. This may not be required, considering the recent insights in to the inner workings of the SMDTG trigger's design.

Pressure, in this context, works like so:

All pathways receive the same pressure from the pump. The pressure will continue to build uniformly in all channels. The only way this would be changed is by blocking off or evacuating one of the channels.


So it seems that the SMDTG System has a built in check valve. Which makes it perfect for this mod, fantastic!

Hmmm I am wondering if I could do something like this with teh whole apparatus and what affect, if any, it would have on the system. If I dont manipulate the location for the SMDTG trigger witha LOT of vinyl tubing then I cant see it being an effective trigger system.

As far as I can tell at least half a foot of vinyl tubing has to go from the T valve to the trigger system,and then another foot for all of the Salvos tanks!

Posted Image

Someone did something similar to an SM1.5k But i now cant find it.

Edited by TimmyTown, 13 September 2008 - 06:17 PM.

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QUOTE(rork @ Mar 16 2009, 05:30 PM) View Post

I, too "have recon," as they say. I get him in old country. Then I realize he sucks like bog. So I trade him for potato.

#10 Draconis

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 01:33 AM

Well shoot.... Why not just use the Titan, and modify the secondary trigger on the front section to use the SMDTG valve, and the air supply from the hornet attachment point? It would end up similar to Baghead's 'Pecan.
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[15:52] <+Noodle> why is this so hard?

#11 TimmyTown

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 02:08 AM

Because then I dont have my awesome shell, or any of the other crap that has been involved in this mod thusfar. There will be 15 barrels when its all said and done. The thing is a monster. Its all under wraps and I will submit a full writeup when its finished.

I just want to know if the length of the vinyl tubing will inhibit the performance in any way.
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QUOTE(rork @ Mar 16 2009, 05:30 PM) View Post

I, too "have recon," as they say. I get him in old country. Then I realize he sucks like bog. So I trade him for potato.

#12 TimmyTown

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 03:23 AM

Because then I dont have my awesome shell, or any of the other crap that has been involved in this mod thusfar. There will be 15 barrels when its all said and done. The thing is a monster. Its all under wraps and I will submit a full writeup when its finished.




I think you'll find that many, if not most, of the best technical sharing minds around here will insist that sharing goes both ways. If you don't give - you don't get. Besides that, when you hide what it's for, sometimes that actually can affect the answers.

The people who do secret things under wraps and then reveal them with fanfare ... are all pretty self-sufficient long before they start any such "secret" projects. You don't come across as being anywhere near that level. Maybe I'm wrong, but my only advice for you is still "good luck with that."



EDIT: and make your damn pictures smaller. At least cut off the white space on the right.


I 100% agree that this is a very give and take community. I intend to contribute the entire write up and everything else in full upon completion. I would gladly post pictures as well but my camera cable has suddenly dissapeared. I intend to give back more then I have taken in the end.

I just require proof of concept for these ideas, and I am wondering if others have experience in the subject and know what to do. As far as I can tell from this idea, pictures were not required in my first post.

Please do not flame me for asking for assistance and guidance in a grammatically correct way after using search. I know what I am doing to a degree and I was just kindly asking if anyone had any experience in this field and if they could provide me with some advice. Many have and I appreciate that.

I am not at all breaking anything in the COC and quite frankly I am entirely in the right.

Thank you for your time and I fixed the pictures, it can be very hard to read some topics with such massive white photos. I did not realize they imported this way. Thanks for your input.
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QUOTE(rork @ Mar 16 2009, 05:30 PM) View Post

I, too "have recon," as they say. I get him in old country. Then I realize he sucks like bog. So I trade him for potato.

#13 imaseoulman

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 06:35 AM

I don't have the time to explain it fully right now, but you WILL need a check valve. The "built-in" check vavle in the SMDTG is in the pump not the trigger assembly.

You will need at least one and probably two (only one if you'll always be firing the same blaster first).

I have to leave in a few minutes, but I'll explain all the pnuematics behind this later in the afternoon as there are a lot of misconceptions being bandied back and forth in this topic.

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#14 CaptainSlug

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 07:25 AM

I don't have the time to explain it fully right now, but you WILL need a check valve. The "built-in" check vavle in the SMDTG is in the pump not the trigger assembly.

You will need at least one and probably two (only one if you'll always be firing the same blaster first).

I have to leave in a few minutes, but I'll explain all the pnuematics behind this later in the afternoon as there are a lot of misconceptions being bandied back and forth in this topic.

-imaseoulman
Master of Salvos

This is correct.
Without a check valve inbetween the Tee and the SMDTG trigger, all of your blast salvo chambers will fire as soon as you empty the titan tank.
Without a check valve inbetween the Tee and the Titan blast chamber, when you depress the SMDTG trigger before the Titan it will keep emptying the Titan blast chamber.

So ideally you need two check valves.
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#15 Maeric

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 10:16 AM

Just as a note: The titan tank has a built in check valve right inside of the nipple thing that attaches to the tubing.
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#16 AssassinNF

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 12:27 PM

Just as a note: The titan tank has a built in check valve right inside of the nipple thing that attaches to the tubing.


No it doesn't.

If it did, My Double Titan wouldn't work.


So TimmyTown, are you planning on actually firing the Titan, or just using its tank to refill the Salvo chambers?

I'm doing something just like this that I'm calling the Marvelous Titan. The only difference is that there are hornet blast chambers attached to the SMDTG trigger instead of Big Salvo chambers. Look here. Maybe that will help.
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#17 imaseoulman

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 05:29 PM

Okay, Slug gave the rundown on what would happen if you tried to not use a check valve. I'd like to address a little bit of why.

Over the last few months, I've had several people ask me about combining tanks and resulting air pressure. Let me state a basic principle of NERF blaster pneumatics. When you start pumping a NERF blaster, everything in the system is going to have equal pressure! If you have a Titan airt ank and an AT2K air tank and three big salvo air tanks (no SMDTG trigger) and you pump ten times, you're going to have equal pressure throughout all of these tanks and the tubing connecting them. This pressure would probably be too low to do anything with, so you'd pump it say thirty more times and get it up to 30 psi. Each blast tank/air tank whatever you call it is going to be at PSI. It is impossible to result in different air pressures in each of these tanks. PRESSURE IS EQUAL THROUGHOUT THE SYSTEM!

Now, most NERF blasters do not have check valves in the tanks themselves. Those that do are not typically used in integrations. So if you did not put in any of your own check valves and you fired the Titan tank, the air from the AT2K would empty via the valve opening in the Titan and the back pressure would cause the three big salvo tansk to fire. The air inside the system would now be equal to atmospheric pressure and therefore no more potential energy to launch darts...pulling the trigger will do nothing.

Now let's use the same scenario but add in an SMDTG trigger (attached to the three BS chambers) without any check valves. If you fire the first of the BS chambers, all the air in the Titan and AT2K tank is going to rush out the top of the SMDTG assembly (see my recent description for an illustration of this). There would still be air in the second two BS tanks, but not anywhere else in the system. You could then fire off two more shots from the remaining two BS tanks, then there would be no more potential engergy in the system (no air at a greater than atmospheric pressure).

Now, let's say you fired the AT2K first using this most recent set up. All the air from the AT2K tank, Titan tank, and the FIRST BS tank would rush out of the AT2K valve opening. The reason the other two Big Salvo tanks won't empty is because they are sealed off inside the SMDTG trigger assembly (again, see my recent thread for an illustration to better understand this).

Okay, now let's talk about doing this set up the "right way," that is, with check valves. You'd want to put a check valve before the Titan tank, the AT2K tank, and the SMDTG trigger assembly. If you fired the Titan tank first, all the air in the tubing before the other check valves would rush out the Titan valve opening, but all the air after the check valves before the SMDTG trigger and AT2K tank would stay put and pressurized. You could then fire off the remaining shots in any order and it would work effectively.

Now, if you're wondering how you can get away with one less check valve, here's the answer...always fire the same tank first. If there are check valves on the other two tanks/trigger assemblies, then the air will remain in them when you fire the "unchecked" tank. If you fired one of the others before you fired the unchecked tank, all the air from the unchecked tank would flow out of the opening and be wasted. So you can always get away with one less check valve than tanks (assuming your air input system has a check valve, and just for the record, the MagStrik trigger valve does not keep air from flowing back out once released, so it does not count as an air source with a check valve) if you always fire the same tank first. If you want the freedom to fire in any order, you need to put a check valve on each tank.

I hope everybody understood this. I'm half way tempted to make a video lecture explaining how this works so people can answer there own questions. Teach a man to fish and all that.

edit: I didn't go into detail on the different operating pressures, but a "Marvelous Salvo" set up can handle a much higher pressure than the Titan. Whichever tank has the lowest maximum pressure tolerance becomes your limiting factor and you don't want to pressurize beyond that limit. In this case, it would be the Titan, which is best around 35-40 PSI.

Edited by imaseoulman, 13 September 2008 - 05:32 PM.

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#18 doubleshot

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 05:46 PM

Dam, seoulman, you know a LOT about air guns. I seem to always break mine or run into problems. Is there a way to put a check valve "connector" between 2 sections of tubing? Like a quick connector? And if so, where can I get them?
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#19 TimmyTown

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 05:57 PM

Dam, seoulman, you know a LOT about air guns. I seem to always break mine or run into problems. Is there a way to put a check valve "connector" between 2 sections of tubing? Like a quick connector? And if so, where can I get them?


I was just about to ask the exact same thing. Are there check valve tees? That would be amazingly amazing.

And thanks for your help sluggy and soulman.

All of your information was ridiculously helpful.

Just as a note: The titan tank has a built in check valve right inside of the nipple thing that attaches to the tubing.


No it doesn't.

If it did, My Double Titan wouldn't work.


So TimmyTown, are you planning on actually firing the Titan, or just using its tank to refill the Salvo chambers?

I'm doing something just like this that I'm calling the Marvelous Titan. The only difference is that there are hornet blast chambers attached to the SMDTG trigger instead of Big Salvo chambers. Look here. Maybe that will help.


And the titan like gun would actually fire. Its not actually a titan though, its just pretty much the same thing. Its not from a nerf gun originally its just a random tank out of something else.

And its VERY important to be able to fire both guns when I need to. That way I have the Marvelous Salvo at my disposal for medium range, and the titan for longer range.


I would like to also request more information on the location of the trigger. I fixed the damn picture halfway down page 1 so you know what Im talking about.

Edited by TimmyTown, 13 September 2008 - 06:07 PM.

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QUOTE(rork @ Mar 16 2009, 05:30 PM) View Post

I, too "have recon," as they say. I get him in old country. Then I realize he sucks like bog. So I trade him for potato.

#20 imaseoulman

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 09:07 PM

DoubleShot, as a connector, you can use this:
mcmaster part# 7757K11 $3.23
It is a barbed connector and a check valve.
I've never seen a quick disconnect check valve, but it would be a bit pricier. Check mcmaster, there's a fair chance they'd have them. I may have seen them in the past and overlooked them because of price.

TimmyTown, I've never heard of check valve 'T'. I don't really see a point. You either need one check valve and a T or two check valves and a T.
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#21 doubleshot

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 09:41 PM

DoubleShot, as a connector, you can use this:
mcmaster part# 7757K11 $3.23
It is a barbed connector and a check valve.
I've never seen a quick disconnect check valve, but it would be a bit pricier. Check mcmaster, there's a fair chance they'd have them. I may have seen them in the past and overlooked them because of price.

TimmyTown, I've never heard of check valve 'T'. I don't really see a point. You either need one check valve and a T or two check valves and a T.

Would this hold the seal, or the pressure, just pushing it into the tubing? Or would there be something else involved in holding the seal? As for the quick connect check valve, I found one (1866T23) with a quick connect, and a threaded end. They are way out of my price range : P. Another thing, the reason I'm not PMing you these questions is, I've searched for this exact type of thing before. I'd assume someone will eventually.

Edited by doubleshot, 13 September 2008 - 09:58 PM.

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#22 imaseoulman

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 10:20 PM

It depends on your tubing, but it works really well with this:
mcmaster part# 5233K52 $.10/ft

If it doesn't seal perfectly, a small zip tie can usually do the job.
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#23 TimmyTown

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 02:38 AM

Alright so I am asuming that what I am looking at now would look more like this with the blue being the check valves:

Posted Image


Can I just buy the check valves in the same area where I found 1/4 OD connectors at home depot or lowes?
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QUOTE(rork @ Mar 16 2009, 05:30 PM) View Post

I, too "have recon," as they say. I get him in old country. Then I realize he sucks like bog. So I trade him for potato.

#24 imaseoulman

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 08:47 AM

Alright so I am asuming that what I am looking at now would look more like this with the blue being the check valves:

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Can I just buy the check valves in the same area where I found 1/4 OD connectors at home depot or lowes?

Not likely. If they did have them that's probably where they would be, but I've never been able to find a suitable check valve in any store for a decent price. McMaster.com really is the best way to go.
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#25 doubleshot

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 10:51 AM

Would the tubing you recommended me work well with the quick tubing connectors?
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