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Dart Tag Next Generation Or "stop Playing With Kid's Toys&quo

Thought on the future of Dart Tag for Teens +

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#1 DflyDen

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:14 PM

[I first posted a comment on the Lancer thread and the responding replies started to veer off topic, so I'm starting to new thread to continue the discussion without hijacking Forsaken_Angel's excellent Lancer Mod post. You can check the beginning posts here: Lancer Thread posts

Hi guys,

Here's the official Gears of War Lancer offered with the upcoming Gear of War 2 game bungle, for $140.

Gear of War 2 Bungle with Lancer

(I searched the Mod forum and didn't see this post before. If it was, sorry)

The Lancer doesn't fire, it only has sound fx and lights, I think. I have to say, what a wasted opportunity! When will some toy company (Hasbro), airsoft, or even a paintball marker company, like Brass Eagle, wake up and make licensed nerf (foam dart) weapons based on our favorite games. I've mentioned this in a couple of posts on my blog. You see my fake ad for a Killzone Long Shot:

Killzone Longshot Ad

You guys have done some great mods, and far better paint jobs than my photoshop comp and i salute your creativity and talent. It's crossed my mind to form my own company and make original dart tag gear for older Nerf warriors. Maybe, someday I will. I'm working on my first mod and I'll post a pic soon.

So. what do you of the official Lancer? (Maybe this should be a new thread?)

To continue, basically, a what are you thoughts on Nerf for the adult (16 yrs old+) market, and any tie-in to the video game world of FPS (First Person Shooter), like Gears of War, Halo, KIllzone, etc. ? And, how can dart tag grow and improve in the future?
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#2 Llama Boy

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:21 PM

Uhh..... So you want Nerf to make a Dart Tag Lancer? Also dart tag stefans and adult dart tag vests have already been made by a couple members here. Now wait......You want Nerf to make a Dart Tag Lancer and put it in a video game? Im confused.
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#3 A side of nerf

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:48 PM

Uhh..... So you want Nerf to make a Dart Tag Lancer? Also dart tag stefans and adult dart tag vests have already been made by a couple members here. Now wait......You want Nerf to make a Dart Tag Lancer and put it in a video game? Im confused.

No, I think he wants Hasbro to start making guns for games (promos, giveaways, etc...) For example, when the Indiana Jones movie came out, they made alot of Indiana Jones toys. Another example is the Iron Man Firefly, The Iron Man Magstrike, The Hulk Titan, and The Spiderman Dart Tag Blasters. I think it is a good idea for Hasbro, and maybe someone could present the idea to the table. It seems like when I send them suggestions, they just give me the same answer. "We will consider your suggestion."

Edited by A side of nerf, 31 August 2008 - 06:53 PM.

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#4 DflyDen

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 06:55 PM

Uhh..... So you want Nerf to make a Dart Tag Lancer? Also dart tag stefans and adult dart tag vests have already been made by a couple members here. Now wait......You want Nerf to make a Dart Tag Lancer and put it in a video game? Im confused.


First, go back to my original Lancer post and read the replies from members BustaNinja and Rork.

The question is, why doesn't a company, not Hasbro per se, make dart tag stuff for an older market (16+ yrs)? Hasbro has a great product and market in the Nerf for kids (6 yrs to 12 yrs old). But really I lot of teenagers, and older, buy Nerf blasters and buy them mod them. One, because that market exist already, Nerf Haven is proof of that. (I get the feeling a lot of people here are collage age, correct me if I'm wrong) Two, as a 'Nerf Dad"I'd would rather see my boys shoot foam darts at each other than BB's or Paintball. (I played paintball back in the 80's, just before Speedball ruined, but that's another story) Hasbro seems to market it "Dart Tag" stuff to the high school and college age crowd. Why go half-way?

The connection to video games is purely a possible marketing connection. I like Nerf blasters, because they look cool and fun, and best of all relatively cheap. I like video game because that look cool and are fun. also. But, I'm not a big online player. (For the record, I'm 58 year, dad of two boy, 10 and 11 years old. I've had a nice career in animation, to boot) I'm here for creativity and fun you guys exhibit here on Nerf Haven.

So what's next for dart tag. Can dart tag be developed into family entertainment enterprise like laser tag centers? Why, or why not? Wouldn't you guys like a regular neighborhood place to go, like a laser tag center, where you could hang out play Dart tag game in a safe, structured environment that would promote and present this hobby/sport/activity in a positive light?

Think about it. Let hear your thoughts.
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#5 Rogue Warrior

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 07:07 PM

I think your dart tag as a laser tag alternative would be smart because then you could still play mil-sim while still remaining inside a very reasonable budget. Think about it, Nerf guns have x amount of range and each gun could maybe give the user something different, you would need to count your ammo, and you would also need to line up your shot not just run n' gun like in regular Laser tag.
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#6 CaptainSlug

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 07:08 PM

They have been working on "Office Nerf" for two years now. The "Elimination game" is a test item to determine if there is in fact the kind of demand you're suggesting.

Launching a target demographic expansion is a slow process.

And sorry but no they will never be offering blasters that are more powerful right out of the box with no modification because Nerf is and forever will try to remain a child-safe brand.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 31 August 2008 - 08:12 PM.

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#7 Lion

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 07:20 PM

They have been working on "Office Nerf" for two years now. The "Elimination game" is a test iem to determine if there is in fact the kind of demand you're suggesting.

Launching a target demographic expansion is a slow process.

And sorry but no they will never be offering blasters that are more powerful right out of the box with no modification because Nerf is and forever will try to remain a child-safe brand.



I'd imagine that's why he stated "not Hasbro per se"

Edited by Lion, 31 August 2008 - 07:20 PM.

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#8 Llama Boy

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 07:32 PM

Now I get you. So you want hasbro to offer replica weapons like M4s and Ak-47s. That would be cool. I should start a buisness and do that. Now where can I find the $100000 for a plastic molding machine.
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#9 A side of nerf

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 07:36 PM

I'd imagine that's why he stated "not Hasbro per se"


C'mon buzzbee, it's your time to shine! :(

Seriously though, maybe companies who own video games like Bungie will consider manufacturing "dart blasters" for promos like Star Wars has.
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#10 analogkid

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 07:40 PM

For one, imitation gun laws would come into play to some extent. The people at Hasbro don't do this partially because we live in a paranoid world, and for the same reasons that we don't paint guns that will be used in wars all black, or for those that do, put orange tape/paint on the barrel. Plus, why waste the energy? Teenagers on this site already run out and buy brightly colored, only somewhat realistic looking nerf weaponry, and mod it whatever way they want. Even if they released a gun that got 80-100ft out of the box, I would still buy the plain old age 6 and up blasters, because I enjoy modding and the flexibility of being able to make the gun work best for me. And trust me, getting teens into nerf isn't an issue. All you have to do is fire one of your modded guns at them, and by the time the welt fully forms, they'll be addicted.
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#11 Llama Boy

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 07:54 PM

Well buzzbee already made a rifle, douyble barrel shotgun, and 2 tommy guns. They could do something like that.

If I found a nerf gun that got 100ft out of the box I would mod it to get 300ft. Ouch.
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#12 Aimless

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 08:00 PM

Well buzzbee already made a rifle, douyble barrel shotgun, and 2 tommy guns. They could do something like that.

If I found a nerf gun that got 100ft out of the box I would mod it to get 300ft. Ouch.


At that point you might as well just dive head first into paintball or airsoft, that kinda power would just turn most encounters into long range standoffs. Not to mention, it would cause severe injuries at conventional nerfing distances.

Edit: Most people that aren't involved in nerf or airsoft also distrust the honor system that nerf relies so heavily on. Hence, people generally trust very few things. One of the reasons paintball is so damn popular is the paintball itself, it removes the need to trust your opponents.

Edited by Aimless, 31 August 2008 - 08:22 PM.

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#13 Rogue Warrior

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 08:11 PM

Or we could stop fartin around and get back on topic. I didn't mean that hasbro or any blaster making company must making them realistic just more varied. the only problem is kids would be mad because they can't be a "SNIPPURH" and shoot people from 100' away. But magstrikes and vulcans could be your small arms and weapons like Big Blasts and Titans could obviously be an artillery. The only problem that I see is people who will not count their hits, then you need to throw in a Refree who will be shot and critisized countless times a game. But CaptainSlug is right, we need to start small and make our dreams a reality.

But as the author of this thread mentioned,"Why not just make guns from our favorite games?" because unfornately most of our favorite games are fairly violent and have real guns or the have guns which would be much to expensive to make because of the detail or the munitions that they fire. I would love a nerf Barret that fired megas crazy far distances with near perfect accuracy, but this will not happen because then the kids are just playing airsoft with foam.

Edited by Rogue Warrior, 31 August 2008 - 08:44 PM.

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#14 CaptainSlug

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 08:15 PM

I'd imagine that's why he stated "not Hasbro per se"

Tough nuggets. Not going to happen.

No sane manufacturer is going to specifically manufacture blasters for what is realistically a primarily niche market. We do not make up a significant portion of the sales of Nerf or Nerf related products. 12 year olds do.

And video game promotional merchandise is going to be expensive because it does not have a place on the shelf at your average toy section at Toys R' Us. It just wouldn't garner enough sales to bring volume production up high enough to bring the price down to a reasonable level.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 31 August 2008 - 08:17 PM.

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#15 DflyDen

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 08:46 PM

Well buzzbee already made a rifle, douyble barrel shotgun, and 2 tommy guns. They could do something like that.

If I found a nerf gun that got 100ft out of the box I would mod it to get 300ft. Ouch.


At that point you might as well just dive head first into paintball or airsoft, that kinda power would just turn most encounters into long range standoffs.



Again, I'm asking how will Dart tag move in the future, besides just being a causal, maverick activity. I think many nerf warriors may progress to paintball or airsoft, if their desire is just for greater firepower. But, I think that's a small minority. Nerf Haven has build a community, here, that promotes safe, responsible, play. That's something worth building on. There's more to this than just hard shooting nerf guns. By the way, paintball started out the same way. A small group of guys making their own equipment and making up the game as they went along. Now it's grown to a very large sport/entertainment activity, not without it's own growing pain along the way. Paintball grew into an industry that make jobs for thousands. Same goes for laser tag centers, go kart parks, and batting cages. These are all example of family entertainment centers. Why not Dart Tag?

A Dart Tag center could be Sci-Fi themed, even game-world themed, like Halo, Haze, Killzone ,or movie/TV based, for example Starship Troopers, Stargate or Battlestar Galactica., or original property. Or even fantasy-theme, like Warhammer. Whatever it is, thinking big and outside the box, it's a family entertainment center, with lobby, arcade, fast food, party rooms, juice bar, gift shop, Member only perks, website ,and players" lounge. Daytime, and early evening set aside for kids, birthday parties, etc. Late evening for the teen and college crowd. Team leagues and tournament, you name it. Open up, guys, use you imagination.
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#16 CaptainSlug

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:07 PM

DflyDen, it's very apparent to me that you have never actually attended a Nerf War. Please try to do so in the near future and such illusions will no longer persist.

Nerf as a hobby is intended to be cheap, accessible, and silly.
In order for it to expand it DOES NOT need to turn into the cash-cow milk-your-audience-for-all-their-money activity that airsoft and paintball can be. If it were to become more corporate or exclusive that would completely defeat the purpose and spirit of the hobby as it is now. Nerf does not require the kind of precision machining that airsoft and paintball do because the projectiles have negligible weight. Therefore the tools and materials needed to significantly improve the performance of your blaster are widely available and the modifications are extremely easy.

I can make a top-tier Nerf blaster from scratch for under $100. I can not even come close to accomplishing such a thing withing the realm of airsoft or paintball where parts have to be accurate down to a thousandth of an inch and have to be rated for very high pressures.

As the market of blasters stands now, you can buy everything you need to attend and participate in a war for under $50 in supplies and one weekends worth of free time. It ALREADY is fun for ages 13 to 45. Nothing you are suggesting would make it more fun or more accessible.
Airsoft and Paintball have the kinds of exclusivity in equipment cost that we laugh at. Sure, you could spend a great deal of money (ceiling figures being MUCH lower than that of paintball) customizing your Nerf blaster, but it won't make you a more capable or effective Nerfer.

Nerf thrives as it does BECAUSE we can do everything we do in public places. Therefore your idea of a for-a-fee venue has no place within the hobby as it is now or will be for the next 10 years.
I do not enjoy paintball or airsoft and they are not comparable. I also do not want to see Nerf become anything like them.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 31 August 2008 - 09:15 PM.

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#17 analogkid

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:09 PM

Yeah, but I'm not gonna pay to use the facility. Unless they want to supply darts, and guns. And I'd just rather use my own stuff anyway. The way that Lazer Tag and paintball were able to develop into such a way is because you need to have a special facility to do it. You can get the cheap ass lazer tag belts from Wal-Mart but those suck. You could maybe play paintball in your own backyard, but most backyards are too small for that kind of action. But try setting up a decent lazer tag system or playing paintball in a public park. Both ventures are bound to be expensive, fail, or both. Nerf is something that is cheap and can be played in public areas usually. Plus, you can get people that don't have their own equipment into the game by loaning weapons until they go buy their own, which are cheap. Not to be down on you, but I don't think that it really matters, and that the nature of nerfing is to just go outside, or stay inside, and just do it. Its supposed to be that simple.

EDIT: CS pretty much beat me to it.

Edited by analogkid, 31 August 2008 - 09:09 PM.

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#18 Llama Boy

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:25 PM

Ok, now this is getting a little crazy. No where in the near, or distant future will there be a Nerf field, let alone a Nerf feild desighed after my favorite Halo map. But hey try to prove me wrong.
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#19 Rogue Warrior

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:37 PM

well what we've come to as of now would be that this will never be alaser tag type thing. But video game color schemeing is still on the table. what do you guys think about a halo longshot or a warhammer maverick?
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#20 analogkid

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 10:22 PM

Ok, now this is getting a little crazy.

GETTING? :cry:

what do you guys think about a halo longshot or a warhammer maverick?

Nope.

EDIT: I agree with below. Except the hand-job machine, our wars could use a few of those. :P

Edited by analogkid, 31 August 2008 - 10:30 PM.

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#21 BustaNinja

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 10:25 PM

My god, this thread makes we wanna cry and cut my wrists.

Cashing in on our lone wolf hobby by capitalizing it would honestly piss me off. Nerf doesn't need arenas, juice machines, fast food places, member perks, hand job machines, free martinis and condoms. Nerf needs guns, a park, friends and....... anything else?

The NIC is a step forward as it allows for easier planning of these Nerf get togethers involving guns and friends and a park.

Again, if you want realistic guns, make them fucking realistic. Nerf isn't about realism. Do we run around in full camo? HELL NO. Bags hears and American tie, I wear plaid and any random cool shirt I can find. Hilt showed up with a superman shirt and matching sunglasses. WE ARE A SILLY FOLK.

I personally don't want to cater Nerf to the gaming, airsofting, paintballing crowd as I know alot of them, and they aren't very honorable. Hell, If Nerf were to join their ranks, it would get made fun of more.

Its a hobby were people dont get hurt, modding is easy, and you can outfit yourself legally and cheaply if you are under 18. Yeah, thats right. I know about all you airsofters who aren't 18 but daddy bought you an airsoft gun.
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#22 rork

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 10:54 PM

One of the reasons I find nerfing attractive is the fact that it is VERY non-commercial. Sure, we buy lots of guns--but they're cheap to begin with, and then we tear them apart and rebuild them in our own various images. If I come to a war carrying a SNAPbow and a bag full of stefans, I haven't contributed one red cent to Hasbro's revenue stream, and do you know what? I like it that way. Also:
http://nerfhaven.com...=0
I wrote that in the original Lancer thread hijack, and I stand by it. It's fairly pointless to complain about the state of nerf weaponry when there are +bows and SNAPs and doomsayers and whatnot out there, just waiting to be built. So let's stop talking about how great it would be for nerfing to drown in corporate bullshit (or how much that would suck), and start exercising the GREAT options that we have. Or bloody hell, why not design the next big thing yourself! Because that's the fantastic thing about this hobby: It's totally player-driven. ~Rork
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#23 Kyrativ

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 12:06 AM

Well this seems like a very intriguing topic so I will throw in my two cents, Making nerf a global activity like laser tag, airsoft, and paintball would seem smart but i think some of you are forgetting something, $$$. Everything revolves around money, if we were to some how open nerfing arena's there would be:
advertisement
construction
employees
nerf guns for rental
and thats not even adding in the whole "members lounge, restaurant, store etc." Overall to keep nerf a cheap and fun sport that it is we will have to refrain from global scale idea's such as this. As for video game guns, Well though they could attract older audiences most people i know who look down upon nerf isn't because they look like 6-year old guns its because it shoots painless foam darts, which to them is lame. so changing the shell of DTG's and Ls's probably wont do much.
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#24 imaseoulman

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 08:12 AM

Alright, this is something I have looked into in the past. Let me give you some background. Back when I was in college I was minoring in business and my university required every business student to start a business, make it profitable and then donate all procedes to a charity. The typical business was selling some sort of food at various campus locations, or customized T-shirts, and occasionally something a bit more creative like selling perfumes/colognes at discounted prices (buying factory direct). One group even put on a rodeo and made a lot of money.

Anyway, I was looking into ways that I could encorporate my NERF fixation into this project and after some market research I came up with a few things:
1) Selling modified blasters would be an Effeminate failure. There just isn't enough of a market to grow a business based solely upon selling modified blasters.
2) There IS an interest in good wholesome entertainment and people will pay for it.

Before I changed my minor to biology I had done surveys and a few "test runs" of the idea to see if it would work, and I'm fairly confident that a "NERF Field" on or near a college campus could be profitable as a student project. I'm fairly sure, though, that it could not generate the kind of revenue needed to support a family as a small business. From the survey I determined that people (college students) would pay $5 for a chance to play in a NERF war where blasters and darts are supplied and the blasters were not uber-modified to the point of pain (we're talking DTB's and NF's not AT2K's), and also a possibility of paying a little extra to use premium blasters (like a MagStrike or LongShot).

The problem with any NERF Game business is that NERF alone could not raise enough revenues to pay for the venue. If you had a family fun center, it wouldn't work well to market it as a NERF center. It would need to be marketed as a family fun center with Putt Putt, Batting Cages, Arcades, and also come check out our really cool NERF room/field. It would do well as an add on to an existing center but not as the main drive to bring people to the center.

Now, having said all this, I would have no problem going to a family fun center and paying $5/ticket to go shoot my friends with a maverick for 1/2 hour or whatever. It could work well as a group date. That's one of the key factors in marketing toward college age, you don't want it to be a "guy" thing, but a "group" thing where people can come and hang out and maybe buy a soft pretzel and a soda.

And, done in this manner, it has the potential to bring lots of people to the hobby. After paying $5/ticket and realizing how much fun it was, people are going to go out and buy some NERF blasters for not much more and have fun with their friends and those that are more into war games and are somewhat mechanically inclined are going to stumble upon NerfHaven and join us in the fun. So, anybody who owns a family fun center, feel free to add on a NERF room if you have the available space. But don't try to grow a self-sufficient business around it. It's just not going to happen.
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#25 DflyDen

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 08:37 AM

First, thank you all for your enlightening posts. I'm not here as a carpetbagger, trying to co-op your maverick hobby. Think of this as creative speculative fiction on the future of nerf war.

Also, BustaNinja is right, I haven't attended a Nerf War, yet. But. I will as soon as I can. One of the thing that got me thinking of dart tag centers was that a Nerf War game was canceled at a local college, the Rochester Institute of Technology, over the usual "PC" concerns. So, games in some public places can be a problem.

The fear of over commercializing nerf, "the hobby", is a valid concern. You can look to paintball for an example of when greed undermines a sport. The growth of "Speedball" in the 1980's, stressed firepower and shooting tons of paintballs, over the fun of running around with your buddies. The paintball fields sold you 'their"paintballs at good profit. That shift in game play ruined the sport for me. I wouldn't want that to happen to nerf gaming.

But, in respect, to another BustaNinja's comment, commercializing has already started with the selling of modded and custom painted nerf guns on from guys on this forum on Ebay. Not to mention all the sale of homemade dart. So, the Pandora's Box of "nerf for profit" has already been opened. long before I came along. It's not such a bad thing. If you can turn a hobby you love into a small business that at least balances what you spend on it, and possibly enough to make a profit, go for it. You would have your ideal job. I speak from experience. My hobby as teen was drawing my own comics, I turned that into a career as a commercial artist, animation producer / director. So, why can't a nerf warrior, modder, or web site moderator use his, or her, talent, and love of the nerf hobby to blaze a new career path?

On the subject of wanting "realistic guns", I not in favor of realistic gun design. I like Hasbro's N-Strike line for the excellent product design which reminds me of Sci-Fi movie props. Heres a post I did before I found Nerf Haven: Dragonfly View - Nerf Post The Nerf Haven members mods and paint jobs only add to the my enjoyment. In addition, I like the fact that nerf darts are safe for my kids, and me. When adult friends question my allowing my kids to play with "toy guns", I say," foam darts don't make, exit wounds". As someone who likes to think outside of the box, (also from my entertainment background) I tend to ask "what if" and "what's Next"? That's one of my hobbies.

I still think the idea of a Dart Tag center could have possibilities. Yes, folks, it would take money, and creative thinking, as any business would. But, creating a new small business has a benefit to everyone. If done with respect and input from the nerf community, anything is possible. I thought of a Dart Tag center as I researched opening a laser tag center as a new career move. Here's several companies the offer info including full business plans for start-ups. At some point in your life you may get fed up with working for other people. Starting your own business will be a good option. Why not build that around something you like.

Thinking about it, the one missing link in my vision of dart tag is a fair, judging, or scoring system. I have some thoughts on that I pass along later.

So, think of this as creative speculative fiction on the future of nerf war. The responses have strongly noted what you don't want Nerf too be. So, where to you see it going? Is the maverick model the end all, and be all of Nerf Wars?

Alright, this is something I have looked into in the past. Let me give you some background. Back when I was in college I was minoring in business and my university required every business student to start a business, make it profitable and then donate all procedes to a charity. The typical business was selling some sort of food at various campus locations, or customized T-shirts, and occasionally something a bit more creative like selling perfumes/colognes at discounted prices (buying factory direct). One group even put on a rodeo and made a lot of money.

Anyway, I was looking into ways that I could encorporate my NERF fixation into this project and after some market research I came up with a few things:
1) Selling modified blasters would be an Effeminate failure. There just isn't enough of a market to grow a business based solely upon selling modified blasters.
2) There IS an interest in good wholesome entertainment and people will pay for it.

Before I changed my minor to biology I had done surveys and a few "test runs" of the idea to see if it would work, and I'm fairly confident that a "NERF Field" on or near a college campus could be profitable as a student project. I'm fairly sure, though, that it could not generate the kind of revenue needed to support a family as a small business. From the survey I determined that people (college students) would pay $5 for a chance to play in a NERF war where blasters and darts are supplied and the blasters were not uber-modified to the point of pain (we're talking DTB's and NF's not AT2K's), and also a possibility of paying a little extra to use premium blasters (like a MagStrike or LongShot).

The problem with any NERF Game business is that NERF alone could not raise enough revenues to pay for the venue. If you had a family fun center, it wouldn't work well to market it as a NERF center. It would need to be marketed as a family fun center with Putt Putt, Batting Cages, Arcades, and also come check out our really cool NERF room/field. It would do well as an add on to an existing center but not as the main drive to bring people to the center.

Now, having said all this, I would have no problem going to a family fun center and paying $5/ticket to go shoot my friends with a maverick for 1/2 hour or whatever. It could work well as a group date. That's one of the key factors in marketing toward college age, you don't want it to be a "guy" thing, but a "group" thing where people can come and hang out and maybe buy a soft pretzel and a soda.

And, done in this manner, it has the potential to bring lots of people to the hobby. After paying $5/ticket and realizing how much fun it was, people are going to go out and buy some NERF blasters for not much more and have fun with their friends and those that are more into war games and are somewhat mechanically inclined are going to stumble upon NerfHaven and join us in the fun. So, anybody who owns a family fun center, feel free to add on a NERF room if you have the available space. But don't try to grow a self-sufficient business around it. It's just not going to happen.


Thanks for you post. This is what I had in mind by bringing up the subject.

Edited by DflyDen, 01 September 2008 - 08:43 AM.

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