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Area Of The Manta Shield

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#1 BustaNinja

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 11:41 AM

Ok, I have heard talk about home made manta shields and how they are extremely erotic, as they often have WAY more surface area. From experience, Carbon and Flaming Hilt both used mantas at SPANO, however, Carbon's was home made. It didnt make it easier to block shots. In some ways, as it was heavier, it was harder.

I wanna know they surface area of the manta so then I can make my own. If it has the same surface area it would still be legal right? I dont want to put work into reconfiguring it only to not be able to use the gun I plan to put it on.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Edited by BustaNinja, 26 August 2008 - 11:43 AM.

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#2 jwasko

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 11:54 AM

Check out Bag's extremely detailed measurements.
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#3 imaseoulman

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 11:56 AM

As far as legality, it depends on the war. West Coast, and Minnesota, you'd probably be fine. VACC, however, has stated explicitly that we will not allow ANY homemade shields. It just depends. As for measurements, they are shown quite clearly HERE.

Hope this helps.

edit: jwasko beat me to it, I guess that's what I get for typing a message, doing something else, then returning to post it.

Edited by imaseoulman, 26 August 2008 - 11:58 AM.

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#4 CaptainSlug

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 12:03 PM

Similarity in the dimensions and its lack over coverage of the user's arm and hand is largely what determines whether or not it is allowed to be used.
They are hard to use effectively.
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#5 BustaNinja

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 12:54 PM

Thank you for the link to Bags manta shield. The way it was put together is what I had in mind, but legality wise, would it be extremely erotic if I were to re configure it to make more of a shield? Or does it have to have the manta ray shape?
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#6 raw shrimp

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 01:01 PM

Funny you bring this up, bags briefly mentioned his at a war two days ago. He said that when he made his, even though it was (for the most part) the same size, some people would not allow at wars. I don't see a problem, so it's more on the person who's hosting the war.

Edited by raw shrimp, 26 August 2008 - 01:01 PM.

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#7 Langley

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 01:21 PM

I don't mean to knock bags here, that homemade manta shell is pretty sweet, but it's a good deal bigger than an actual manta, and he offers up some pretty vague maximum size limitations, not detailed measurements of an actual manta. What I would really like to see are some photographs of a manta next to a ruler or on some good graph paper from straight above (ie not an angle which would distort the measurements). If you could get a relatively high-resolution photo of one and make a reasonable approximation of pixels per linear inch of the gun's length/width, that would give you a damn good blueprint.
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#8 VACC

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 01:40 PM

It isn't so much that I think homemade mantas are unfair or game altering as much as I don't want to get into the discussion we're having right now. Where do we draw the line, is really what's being asked. I just think allowing only the manta ray as a blocking surface is the easiest place to draw it. I'd still be willing to judge things on a case by case basis, but I'd never assume a homemade shield is legal coming to a war that I was hosting. Though the horsemen don't host nearly as many as we attend, anymore.
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#9 Split

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 02:11 PM

I do have to agree with Vacc here.

Langley, there's really no such this as a perfectly straight shot, but this is as close as you're going to get:
Posted Image
Hope this helps whoever needs it.

Some tags:
Manta ray measurement
measurements
scale
size
distance
surface area
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#10 imaseoulman

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 02:36 PM

Hmmm...Bags claimed the stock Manta was 17" wide. This photo casts some doubts on that.

Splitlip, is your Manta curved more than a stock manta?

EDIT: I just measured my Manta Ray and it was almost exactly 14" across and 10" long if you don't count the cocking handles. And if you measure the curve of the manta, it's almost exactly 17" across, must be how he got the measurement.

Edited by imaseoulman, 26 August 2008 - 02:50 PM.

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#11 Split

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 02:38 PM

Not at all. This is actually my third manta, and it's exactly the same as the other two, in just about every way (including curvature) except the mods (I'll write them up by the end of the week, I'm working on something more important right now).

Oh, and it's about 14" wide by 11" long. (for those trying to determine the perspective angle)

Edit again: I think that he means if you run a tape measure from point to point across the surface of the shell. I could see those numbers being true if that were the case.

Edited by Splitlip, 26 August 2008 - 02:40 PM.

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#12 Carbon

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 02:50 PM

The way it was put together is what I had in mind, but legality wise, would it be extremely erotic if I were to re configure it to make more of a shield? Or does it have to have the manta ray shape?

I can't speak for the rest of the Midwesterners, but personally, I'd say it has to be the general size and shape of a Manta. Otherwise, it's just a shield.
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#13 Z4

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 03:06 PM

Using some graph paper and a pencil, I came up with each "lobe" being about 40 square inches and the middle part being about 16 1/2 square inches. So, all totaled up, I make it to be about 96 square inches. That's pretty rough work though, so the actual total (I'd say) is probably between 90 and 105 square inches.
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#14 imaseoulman

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 03:10 PM

Using some graph paper and a pencil, I came up with each "lobe" being about 40 square inches and the middle part being about 16 1/2 square inches. So, all totaled up, I make it to be about 96 square inches. That's pretty rough work though, so the actual total (I'd say) is probably between 90 and 105 square inches.


So, it's not much bigger (surface area wise) than an ordinary piece of paper. Sounds about right.
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#15 baghead

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 06:50 PM

Hmmm...Bags claimed the stock Manta was 17" wide. This photo casts some doubts on that.

Splitlip, is your Manta curved more than a stock manta?

EDIT: I just measured my Manta Ray and it was almost exactly 14" across and 10" long if you don't count the cocking handles. And if you measure the curve of the manta, it's almost exactly 17" across, must be how he got the measurement.



All my measurements were done with a fabric measuring tape... I measured from point to point including the curvature of the shell...simulating it's total surface area(as if it were flat), not the space it covers when curved. That is why my homemade shield looks so much larger than a stock manta, it's completely flat, what's funny about all of this is that no one even complained when I flattened a stock manta, and added about an inch of sheet plastic to adjust the shape. I'm really busy right now, so I'll save my big long argument into the legitimacy of all this crap later when I have free time... but I wanted to clear that up, come on guys... why is it suddenly the common thought that I would Bullshit you guys on this manta thing?
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#16 Langley

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 07:20 PM

I didn't say you were bullshitting, just that you didn't post the detailed specifications people seemed to think you did.
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#17 Ubermensch

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 08:18 PM

How about this for a rule: Homemade shield are allowed, but there is a catch: they can only have up to half of the surface area of the Manta. Thus, homemade shields are easily allowed, but the Manta is still far superior, making everyone happy, both those who are lucky or rich enough to own a manta, and those that aren't. :lol:

Edited by Ubermensch, 26 August 2008 - 08:18 PM.

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#18 Falcon

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 10:24 PM

How about this for a rule: Homemade shield are allowed, but there is a catch: they can only have up to half of the surface area of the Manta. Thus, homemade shields are easily allowed, but the Manta is still far superior, making everyone happy, both those who are lucky or rich enough to own a manta, and those that aren't. happy

We've been over the whole "setting rules/standards" thing in a few threads, and VACC's thoughts are still ringing in my ears as the most logical approach: There's no way we can set universally accepted rules about Mantas, because everyone plays differently, and as such, will decide for themselves what they allow and what they don't.

Along the line of your statement, though, if homemade shields were only allowed to be approx. half the surface area of a standard manta, that would make them virtually useless, because for them to remain in standard Manta configuration, the blocking area around the hand would be so insubstantial that the hand itself would constantly be hit. It'd be like using a dart tag velcro hand held target (the ones that look like nerfy bucklers) with a manta-shaped gap for your hand cut through the middle instead of a manta. So yes...worthless.

Bags' Manta shells look considerably larger than a normal manta because they are completely flat, and a few aesthetic points (which draw the attention of the eye) have been enhanced for appearance as well as coverage. The points that draw back towards the hands which make the manta shape somewhat resemble the vintage Batman Logo are in no way enhancing the user's blocking ability, because they are so far away from the focal point and the bulk of the shield that if a block were made with one of these larger "fins" it would be from sheer luck. The other expanded part, around the main curved edges was only enlarged on the first gun for the sake of covering the two pseudo-large pistols that he integrated into the manta, for both aesthetic as well as functional reasons. This bulk slowed down the gun considerably, making it ultimately about as effective as a shield (if not less effective) than a standard Manta. If he reads this, Badger, the current owner of Sicklefin I'm sure can attest that the gun weighs at least twice (if not more) the weight of a standard Manta, and has found it a bit unwieldy.

So the points/advantages gained by the "excessively oversized" homemade manta shells Bags has produced are really, in fact, not upping his game all that much. Personally, I'm a Nerf brand manta purist, but that's simply because I'm too lazy to make homemade shells, and already have enough Mantas to suit my needs. Otherwise, I might be following suit with Bags, were my need for an extra/new manta shell be that great.

So if you want to make a homemade manta, go for it! If you want to use it at someone else's war, tell them you're bringing it along ahead of time (IN ADDITION to your other guns), and they'll tell you either on the spot or at the war on a case-by-case basis whether or not they want to allow it. Perhaps they could be conned into a compromise where they would allow you to use it for an opening warm-up round, and then decide if they think it gives you an unfair advantage or not.

Edited by Falcon, 26 August 2008 - 10:26 PM.

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#19 BustaNinja

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 10:35 PM

Or because I plan to use it like a shield on my big blast, I could make it detachable. Thanks again for all the input.
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#20 Falcon

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 10:36 PM

Or because I plan to use it like a shield on my big blast, I could make it detachable. Thanks again for all the input.

Finally, detachable integrations are catching on! Woo hoo!

Good luck with the project! Looking forward to seeing how that turns out!
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#21 imaseoulman

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 10:41 PM

come on guys... why is it suddenly the common thought that I would Bullshit you guys on this manta thing?

Sorry if that's the impression I gave. I just assumed there were some mismeasurements, until I measured the curvature, and it was almost exactly 17". No, Bags, nobody thinks you're putting forth misleading material, and for the record, you still have my respect.
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#22 BustaNinja

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 10:47 PM

Or because I plan to use it like a shield on my big blast, I could make it detachable. Thanks again for all the input.

Finally, detachable integrations are catching on! Woo hoo!

Good luck with the project! Looking forward to seeing how that turns out!

Will do.

Detachable integrations are what I have been working at all the time. Its more of a pass into my love for tactical weaponry, but being able to slap on a different gun makes your play style change drastically, and I like having that option.
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#23 Split

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 11:18 PM

Or because I plan to use it like a shield on my big blast, I could make it detachable. Thanks again for all the input.

Finally, detachable integrations are catching on! Woo hoo!

Good luck with the project! Looking forward to seeing how that turns out!

Will do.

Detachable integrations are what I have been working at all the time. Its more of a pass into my love for tactical weaponry, but being able to slap on a different gun makes your play style change drastically, and I like having that option.


Same here! imaseoulman too apparently! I was just telling him how I love how I don't have to have a million different guns, but I cant just put in and take out whatever I want.
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#24 baghead

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 12:32 AM

come on guys... why is it suddenly the common thought that I would Bullshit you guys on this manta thing?

^I should have defined this better... it's more of the fact that it seems anytime the terms "Manta, Legality, Questionable and/or Non-standard use" wind up within a thread it somehow comes back to me. which coupled with often fallacy-ridden comments about irrelevant things like "what if people start doing things that are out of hand" coming into play, I just simply get a little annoyed. Particularly since I have openly and strongly been against the use of mantas as simply armor or as just an additional defense, rather than as a key part of the functionality of using a manta.

I didn't say you were bullshitting, just that you didn't post the detailed specifications people seemed to think you did.

I Wasn't accusing you or anyone in particular of calling BS, more of venting that it's rather annoying that whenever anything is posted about mantas; someone winds up saying "well...bags did this" and someone else saying "But it's wrong!"... gets a bit old...

I never said that I documented things perfectly... my Prototype was a proof of concept and all the information I put out there was solely for the purpose of being a Starting point for anyone who felt like doing something similar. The Size measurements I made were done to give people key reference points for the drawing their own unique template. I may be one of the more neurotically thorough members of this hobby, but from the start the homebrew manta concept was designed with individualism in mind.

Sorry if that's the impression I gave. I just assumed there were some mis-measurements, until I measured the curvature, and it was almost exactly 17". No, Bags, nobody thinks you're putting forth misleading material, and for the record, you still have my respect.


^like I just said...wasn't particularly pointing a finger at anyone...just annoyed with this discussion right now...because apparently modifying the shape of a manta is going too far but all the other Weird things we do to nerf blasters(including modifying the capacity of a plunger tube/air tank) is just fine.... you just happened to give out the numerical information I needed to reference in my explanation for how I made the measurements.


Now.. For Something positive:

Big shout out to my main homie falcon for backing me up... we're the ones who pretty much run what goes on in SoCal nerf right now... if you don't want to agree with us, that's fine...all we've ever said is "this is what we do, why not give it a try" and that applies to all the "unconventional" things we do with mantas...or with how our crew nerfs in general.

to the discussion about the homemade shell I do have one anecdote to add... there's something funny I've run into because it's soo much lighter a material than the Epoxied beast the original sicklefin was and it's less secure because I still haven't quite figured out how I'm mounting it on a blaster permanently yet... it has actually caught the wind and fallen off the blaster I'd velcroed it to...(a Nat Geo gun while I keep working on my new primary) more than once ... which each time has lead to me getting shot somewhere I would have been defended, for example, got nailed by Slug at Geddon as a ran right at him... where the manta would have been.

I now will speak no more about this stuff until I have some time to really write up a concise and clear article on the theory of the use of mantas, and and any other plausible shield blasters in this hobby(like the little hand guard on the ratchetblast or those spy gear disk shooters that are meant to block with). and in said article I'll let all this shit hit the fan and discuss it freely. Right now... I'm also partially put on-edge by all of this because I currently can put forth a more detailed, clear and in-depth argument about the concepts of using a homemade manta than I can for my chosen topic in my Research Seminar Class for summer school... and That's a bad thing...

Or because I plan to use it like a shield on my big blast, I could make it detachable. Thanks again for all the input.

Finally, detachable integrations are catching on! Woo hoo!

Good luck with the project! Looking forward to seeing how that turns out!

Will do.

Detachable integrations are what I have been working at all the time. Its more of a pass into my love for tactical weaponry, but being able to slap on a different gun makes your play style change drastically, and I like having that option.


Same here! imaseoulman too apparently! I was just telling him how I love how I don't have to have a million different guns, but I cant just put in and take out whatever I want.


Detachable things is like a party and a half in my book(although... a manta on a big blast seems like a bit of overkill)... and when you guys see what I'm working on next...you'll understand why.

-bags

Edited by baghead, 27 August 2008 - 10:00 AM.

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#25 VACC

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 08:03 AM

I think Baggs should have one of his friends crochet him a vagina doiley to keep all that sand out.

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