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Theory/idea Forum

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#1 Shadow 92

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:47 PM

If was wondering, why don't we have a thoery forum? I think it would be extremely benificial to have one, for a variety of reasons. Mainly, the increase in contributions and a growth in the level of modifications. ( I don't really feel like writing a long winded essay because I had to write a couple DBQs in APUSH and analyze some poetry in AP English, so I'll just list the pros of the idea. As the topic grows, I'll update it the possible cons.)

Pros:
  • It will increase the quality of homemades and modifications
    • Allows people to improve and expand upon other designs
    • Those better designs will rersult in better products
  • People always complain about others not contributing, this gives people the chance to contribute
  • Will allow for the peer review of designs
    • Brings the designer to attention crucial design flaws that would have required more work to fix later on
  • Attract people to the forum intrested in designing (it's the reason why I'm a member at Spudfiles)
  • Increase the number of known desings
    • Gives people a wider selection of designs to choose from when building a homemade or modding a gun
    • There are only a couple of known designs right now and most of them are either expensive to build or require uncommon tools
  • Other sites have had great success with a theory board
Cons:
  • Designs will remain designs and not be followed through
  • Goes against rules made by moderaters
  • Faster results are accomplishes by building models
What do you think?

Edited by Shadow 92, 15 August 2008 - 09:52 PM.

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#2 CaptainSlug

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:01 PM

So far theory/design/concept threads almost never result in a blaster actually being finished. Therefore I would not want to promote the existence of such threads.

* There are only a couple of known designs right now and most of them are either expensive to build or require uncommon tools

Supports the above statement. There are too few people actually willing to see their original design completed and are also willing to provide detail instructions that others can follow to make their own.
Having a theory/design/concept specific board would not improve this situation.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 15 August 2008 - 09:01 PM.

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#3 badger

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:11 PM

I think it also goes along with something Pineapple said awhile back concerning how concept threads will no longer be tolerated. So a theory/idea/concept forum would most likely not be tolerated either, so I highly doubt it will ever happen.

Here is the link to what PInapple said. Just because it is from last year does not mean it is no longer in effect.

It's Clean-Up Time!!!

I personally believe that if you have an idea, try it yourself or wait for someone to do it first. That is how modding began. Someone had an idea, tried it out, and the rest is history.
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#4 Shadow 92

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:21 PM

So far theory/design/concept threads almost never result in a blaster actually being finished. Therefore I would not want to promote the existence of such threads.

* There are only a couple of known designs right now and most of them are either expensive to build or require uncommon tools

Supports the above statement. There are too few people actually willing to see their original design completed and are also willing to provide detail instructions that others can follow to make their own.
Having a theory/design/concept specific board would not improve this situation.

Thanks for the feedback.

While I do acknowledge the fact that most people (including myself), don't follow through with their plans, I do believe that having a design board will allow people who actually build stuff to choose from a greater variety of designs.

To counter your statement concerning tools, designs that require minimal fabrication can simply be produced. What I enjoy most about Spudfiles, is seeing a design that is capable of many things, yet operates on a simple design or is made of basic parts. Making designs like that available further increases the number of people that can produce a product, and therefore contribute more.

I think it also goes along with something Pineapple said awhile back concerning how concept threads will no longer be tolerated. So a theory/idea/concept forum would most likely not be tolerated either, so I highly doubt it will ever happen.

Here is the link to what PInapple said. Just because it is from last year does not mean it is no longer in effect.

It's Clean-Up Time!!!

I personally believe that if you have an idea, try it yourself or wait for someone to do it first. That is how modding began. Someone had an idea, tried it out, and the rest is history.


I've read that message, but I have to disagree. From what I gather, Pinapple's basic reasoning was to encourage contributions. But as you can see, more contribtuions can be made if a theory board was created.

My philosphy on modding is to simply improve on what already exists. Allowing people to post their designs gives people a chance to improve on a design. Even if that person can't actually build it, the idea is expressed and other people can.

Edited by Shadow 92, 15 August 2008 - 09:25 PM.

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#5 keef

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:21 PM

What if the threads had to approved for conductivity before being posted? And do not count towards post count?
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#6 CaptainSlug

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:22 PM

People that actually build stuff typically do not need or want to use the designs of other people. Nobody is going to invest the time or money to attempt to duplicate a design that hasn't been built by anyone to confirm that it's even feasible or functional as a blaster.

You're unfortunately assuming that posts alone count as contribution. That's just not the case in this community, where emphasis is on promoting Nerf War attendance. And increasing the innovation of the blasters we use to keep said wars interesting.

Designs do not equal innovation. Working prototypes do. Just make the damn thing and then post pictures afterwards.
We don't want to hear about it before you've put any effort into it outside of making an MSPaint drawing.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 15 August 2008 - 09:34 PM.

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#7 The Infinite Shindig

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:31 PM

As someone with an engineering degree, I have a problem with theorists. I'm going to tell a little story that some people may be able to relate to.

So my group was tasked with designing a toy sized car for our freshman engineering project. We had to build it from scratch using materials in our Macgyver box. Think of it as a junk drawer emptied into a tackle box with a very small electric motor included. The objective was to build a toy sized car and to have it stop 10 feet from the start point. We had no breaking system. We didn't have to use the motor.

So each person in the group came up with designs and presented them. Four hours later group member named Jerkface is still arguing with us over the expected results of a test that would take five minutes. Four hours of speculation or a five minute test? It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out, unless that geniuses name is Jerkface.

Personally, I'd rather people show some failed designs that they tried to implement. If you actually put a good, solid effort into it, people may help you. If you're an idiot, the kids will make fun of you. Progress in science is measured by failures as much as successes. Edison had about 10,000 tries before he got that damn bulb to work. If your attempt is legit, post it up. If people make fun of you, ignore them, build something better, and then whoop their asses with it at the next war.

That's what I call productive. Sitting around and arguing over how you think the physics are going to work is not. I think monkeys flinging poo at each other may have produced as much as a bunch of theorists arguing over expected test results.
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#8 Shadow 92

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:45 PM

1.People that actually build stuff typically do not need or want to use the designs of other people.
2. Nobody is going to invest the time or money to attempt to duplicate a design that hasn't been built by anyone to confirm that it's even feasible or functional as a blaster.

3. You're unfortunately assuming that posts alone count as contribution. That's just not the case in this community, where emphasis is on promoting Nerf War attendance. And increasing the innovation of the blasters we use to keep said wars interesting.

4. Designs do not equal innovation. Working prototypes do.


1. People that actually build stuff actually do use other people's ideas. Just look at how guns are based off of the blow forward bolt on Spudfiles.

2. That's the whole point of peer review. Using others to check for design flaws to increase the chances of creating working model.

3. Contributing designs and spreading ideas is alot better than keeping an amazing iidea inside your head.

4. The Manhattan Project wasn't made by a single person who had a great idea and put it together. It was the result of the collaboration of hundreds of people working together to create a solid, functioning design. Of course prototypes needed to be developed before the final version was created. I'm not saying that a design alone will lead to a revolution in Nerfing. But what I am saying is that better products often result from better ideas?


saving space

I totally agree that at some point, the designs have to be made to be fully tested. But having the ability to have others check your design before you waste time building something that obviously won't work is an invaluable resource. For example, I designed a spring less, semi auto bolt and valve. I posted it on Spudfiles and was nicely informed that the front of the bolt had to have more surface area in order to work. Simple facts like that allowed me to fix my design before building it, saving me the money that it would have cost to build another design and the time it would have taken me to fix a problem that I would have otherwise not have known how to solve.

In addition, it's sometimes just not feasible to build multiple models when they're epensive to build or consume a lot of time. Having a peer reviewed design eliminates most of the work required to create a working product. I'm not saying that having it peer reviewed will automaticaly gurantee success, but it sure will help a lot.

Edited by Shadow 92, 15 August 2008 - 09:56 PM.

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#9 The Infinite Shindig

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:07 PM

So let's recap:

1. You want us to completely loosen our policy banning idea only threads.
2. CS, who no one will question his level of expertise, reiterates the reasoning behind team NH's decision.
3. I decide to throw you a bone and open the possibility to a reasonable exception.
4. You keep fighting.

This site is run the way the founders want it to be run. It's really that simple. We don't overturn policy outright unless they tell us otherwise. If you want to solely kick ideas around, find someplace else to do it. If you have come up with something, or want to talk about the improvement of past creations that's fine. Bottom line is this: build something* before it gets posted here.

* NH does reserve the right to take action on your account if our team of experts thinks unsafe designs are being made. These designs could either result in damage to you, someone else, or major property damage.
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#10 Langley

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:35 PM

It's possible to kick around ideas in a thread. It's possible to make an intelligent, well written post that explores a possible modification or homemade, and asks for help with some problem that is tripping the author up with what would otherwise be a perfectly good design.

The problem comes when someone who really doesn't have any grasp on the mechanics of a nerf gun posts a shitty MS Paint diagram of how they think a homemade could work, with no regard for how all of those pieces would be fabricated and assembled. These threads are only one step up from "So I'm going to try to build a chain-fed automatic fart-powered blaster out of some vinyl siding and a dead kitten, anyone have any advice?".

I don't think a ban on idea threads is fair. I'm somewhat biased since I'm guilty of concept threads myself. However, I think an automatic ban on members who post retarded idea threads is perfectly reasonable. All that being said I really don't think we need a forum specifically for concept threads. A special forum just for ideas? What are we, NerfHQ?

Edited by Langley, 15 August 2008 - 10:36 PM.

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#11 Shadow 92

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:55 PM

So let's recap:

1. You want us to completely loosen our policy banning idea only threads.
2. CS, who no one will question his level of expertise, reiterates the reasoning behind team NH's decision.
3. I decide to throw you a bone and open the possibility to a reasonable exception.
4. You keep fighting.

This site is run the way the founders want it to be run. It's really that simple. We don't overturn policy outright unless they tell us otherwise. If you want to solely kick ideas around, find someplace else to do it. If you have come up with something, or want to talk about the improvement of past creations that's fine. Bottom line is this: build something* before it gets posted here.

* NH does reserve the right to take action on your account if our team of experts thinks unsafe designs are being made. These designs could either result in damage to you, someone else, or major property damage.


I see. I'll accept the decision and I appreciate your input. Thank you for clarifying a subject that's been bugging me for a while.

If I may ask though, what exactly was the exception? I'm afraid I haven't noticed where you mention the exception.


Thanks to everyone for helping me understand this a little bit better.
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#12 TheNerfLoki

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 12:07 PM

At the beginning of my membership i posted a couple of concept threads. As some one who has been down that path there are 4 things i have to say about it:
1. it wastes space
2. it does not get anything done
3. it gets you flamed
4. You will probably get the 9999 day special
Those are 4 good reason for why not to post concept threads or have a concept forum.
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