21 replies to this topic

[MithMorchaint]

When I got my first Longshot about, oh, almost a year ago, I put an enormous spring into it. This spring I have not been able to locate in a store again, so I can't give you a part number or anything for it, sadly. Anyway, it is quite powerful. Powerful enough that after being in the Longshot for a while and being used, the metal bar used to cock the Longshot was starting to bend and break. I removed the spring as soon as I noticed this, and that longshot is now fine.

However, the power and range of the Longshot with this spring in it was spectacular, so I wanted to be able to use it again. I bought a second Longshot about a month ago and put this spring in it. Sure enough, after a few days of use, the metal bar was starting to bend. I also found that it was almost impossible to cock the gun in the first place, requiring both hands and being braced against my chest (and I am not a weak person).

I looked through the mods on here for anything that might solve both issues, but to no avail. I decided to come up with my own solution to the problem. First, I would replace the metal cocking bar with a heavier piece of metal. Second, I would create a new cocking mechanism that utilized the mechanical advantage of levers to make cocking easier. This way I could maintain power while increasing the rate of fire.

The result?



I had to build the entire framework out of metal (the silver is steel, the gold is (coated) aluminum) because of the stress being put on it. Basically, there is a handle at the very top of those steel bars which you grab and pull back on, which slides the aluminum bars back, cocking the gun. Then you push it forward again to close the bolt. The aluminum bars are connected to a piece of 1/4" steel rod that goes through the (enlarged) hole in the gun, where the original cocking handle bar went.

Better shot of the handle:



The handle is the wodden bar on the right side of the picture. It is connected to the steel be a bolt that goes through either end of the wood.

Needless to say, this system works very well. I can now hold the gun in one hand and cock it with the other, getting a fairly decent rate of fire for its power. To further take advantage of this, I did the combining-clips mod to have a 13-dart clip.

So, in case this isn't very clear:

Gun at rest (bolt closed):



Handle pulled back (bolt open):




It's not the prettiest mod, but it is functional and does what I set out to do. You might point out that it's a bit large, but it really doesn't add a whole lot of weight to the gun. This is also my "outdoors" longshot, so size is not a major issue. As far as I have been able to find, nobody has done something like this before, so please let me know what you think.

Edit: Forgot to mention, also did typical LS mods - AR removal, clip locking mechanism to allow removal when bolt is closed, etc.

Edited by MithMorchaint, 02 August 2007 - 10:12 PM.

[The Shadow]

So you put in a giant spring and are forced to use metal as a cocking mechanism?

[MithMorchaint]

So you put in a giant spring and are forced to use metal as a cocking mechanism?

I wouldn't say I was forced to use metal, it was just the best option. I could have used some pieces of heavy PVC, but in the end they would have been bulkier and weighed more. Metal is also more durable in the long run. Finally, this is what I had at hand - I don't have any heavy PVC laying around.

That's pretty hardcore. I'd recommend reinforcing the blue bolt-sled piece. That piece broke on me when I used a #69 Ace spring.

That hadn't occurred to me, I'll have to look into putting something in there to strengthen that piece. I think I have some L-shaped metal pieces laying around that I can screw into it.

[Thom]

That is simultaneously hideous and beautiful. Ranges?

[nerfer34]

That's really cool and creative.

Nice job!

So I'm assuming that has much more leverage and flows nicely?

[MithMorchaint]

That is simultaneously hideous and beautiful. Ranges?

When I did this to my last one it was...around like 80 feet I think, but don't hold me to that. I'll take it outside when I get home from work (where I am currently) and range it. And yeah, it's a bit ugly, but it gets the job done. If I can get better materials for it I'll probably revise it in the future.

That's really cool and creative.

Nice job!

So I'm assuming that has much more leverage and flows nicely?

Thank you! Yes, the leverage is incredibly helpful and the whole thing works smoothly. It's the difference between two hands and braced against my chest to cock it with the stock handle thing, and cocking it with one hand with this mod. The only danger is that now my girlfriend will be able to use it .

[SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA]

Ingenious. The only problem is the bulk of the gun with the levers on top, even for outdoors, but judging from the reputation you gave the spring, this isn't exactly what you'll be using for CQB. Is there any noticeable wear on the shell of the gun where the angle iron pivots? Also, did you take the stock off because it kept collapsing or because you didn't like it? The former can be solved by cutting 1/2" PVC sections and glueing them in the hollow of the stock where the end of the gun slides.

Edited by SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA, 03 August 2007 - 09:51 AM.

[Mike7822]

lol, Do you hold it like the heavy weapons guy from team fortress 2?

[Carbon]

I’m in the minority here, but I think it’s a workaround to a bad situation.

A spring that’s so strong that parts are bending means you’re dramatically shortening the life of your Longshot, but only getting average ranges out of it. I don;t have a longshot, but I think you should improve your seal, as it sounds like a lot of force is getting wasted (and getting transferred to the parts of your LS). At the very least, reinforce your parts before they explode.

[stewy]

I’m in the minority here, but I think it’s a workaround to a bad situation.

A spring that’s so strong that parts are bending means you’re dramatically shortening the life of your Longshot, but only getting average ranges out of it. I don;t have a longshot, but I think you should improve your seal, as it sounds like a lot of force is getting wasted (and getting transferred to the parts of your LS). At the very least, reinforce your parts before they explode.

Agreed, however I do like the way you improvised with what you had. All you need is a nice paint job to finish it off.

[MithMorchaint]

The only problem is the bulk of the gun with the levers on top, even for outdoors, but judging from the reputation you gave the spring, this isn't exactly what you'll be using for CQB.

Yeah, I wouldn't shoot somebody with this at less than 30 feet. Hurts too much.

Is there any noticeable wear on the shell of the gun where the angle iron pivots? Also, did you take the stock off because it kept collapsing or because you didn't like it?

There is no wear on the plastic as of yet, but that is something I'm keeping an eye on. Also, I always remove the stocks on these when I'm doing them because it gets in the way when I fire one-handed.

lol, Do you hold it like the heavy weapons guy from team fortress 2?

I think I know what you're talking about, and only when cocking.

A spring that’s so strong that parts are bending means you’re dramatically shortening the life of your Longshot, but only getting average ranges out of it.

Perhaps you misunderstood, but maybe not - the only piece that was having a problem was the metal cocking bar that has the two orange handles on it. Everything else is totally fine, though somebody pointed out that I should reinforce one of the pieces that can break with a heavy spring.

With that part replaced, I don't think I'm going to be shortening the life by any significant amount. I mean, I can see what you mean, but none of the other parts are taking any damage. I will of course monitor the situation, but I think it's ok. And as far as ranges, as I said, I haven't "officially" ranged it yet. I finished it at 11PMish last night, was dark out.

I don;t have a longshot, but I think you should improve your seal, as it sounds like a lot of force is getting wasted (and getting transferred to the parts of your LS). At the very least, reinforce your parts before they explode.

I'm not sure why you think the force is getting transferred to the parts inside the LS. The only part taking any sort of damage was the metal cocking bar, which was being damaged because of the force applied to it when cocking the gun. Nothing else is having any trouble...

Can you maybe clarify what you mean as far as parts being damaged? As I said, the only part I have noticed being harmed in either of the LSes this spring was in was that metal bar. Everything else holds up just fine.

[Carbon]

Can you maybe clarify what you mean as far as parts being damaged? As I said, the only part I have noticed being harmed in either of the LSes this spring was in was that metal bar. Everything else holds up just fine.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough...but here's the way I'm thinking on this.

The ranges you're getting are pretty common for longshots, but your spring is supplying a lot more force. Since the force isn't being applied to the dart, it has to go somewhere...and that's into the parts of your Longshot, when the plunger slams home. You're supplying way more power than you're using: weaker springs (that don't bend the metal bar) get similar ranges.

It's like bungees: they supply more force, and don't cause immediate damage, but eventually, the extra force stresses the plastic too much, and it breaks. But you aren't getting greater range (at least, what you've measured so far). Since your spring is supplying more power than usual (but not showing any benefit), that's why I suggested checking your seals.

The metal bar bending is the first and most apparent sign of stress. There will be more.

EDIT: Finally thought of a good way to summarize what I'm trying to say...if you're bending the metal bar, it means you're surpassing the strength of that part. If you're surpassing the strength of one part, it's pretty safe to say you're probably surpassing the strength of others...especially since the rest of the parts are all plastic.

Edited by Carbon, 03 August 2007 - 12:09 PM.

[MithMorchaint]

EDIT: Finally thought of a good way to summarize what I'm trying to say...if you're bending the metal bar, it means you're surpassing the strength of that part. If you're surpassing the strength of one part, it's pretty safe to say you're probably surpassing the strength of others...especially since the rest of the parts are all plastic.

Ok, thanks for the explanation...the rest of what you said makes sense now.

I can see your point now, and I'll admit it's one I hadn't thought of. I suppose the solution would be, as you said in the other post, to reinforce the parts (another person suggested this as well), as well as checking the seal on the plunger and such (again, as you said). When I get home I'll do a range test, then open it up and do some work on reinforcing and such, and test it again to see if I get significant improvement (but at the very least, better safety/lifespan). Might not have stuff up here for a few days, but I'm definately going to do this and make an update. I have the weekend free besides a few things I have to do, so hopefully this'll be done by Sunday.

Thanks for the advice on this, hadn't thought of that.

[telekinetic]

You're really not getting much of an advantage...1.7 to 1.



Totally asside from Carbon's (very legitimate) point about the structure of your gun, rather than stress your gun's frame and internal out so much by loading it structurally it ways it wasn't meant to be loaded, why not put a two-sided pull handle on the bolt? I bet you could still pull the spring easily, since the force multiplier you're using isn't very large.

What I'm talking about is taking the part with the handle, and just attaching it to the bolt and pointing it backwards. Since it would be pulling on both sides of the bolt at once I think you could still do it, and it would be much more streamlined. To try it, unbolt the front bolt and try to cock it by pulling back on the wooden handle (would be behind the stock.)

Here's an MS Painted view of what I'm talking about. This is the top of the gun, it is pointing down. Left is uncocked, right is cocked.



All in all, very creative, hope this feedback helps!

Edited by telekinetic, 03 August 2007 - 05:45 PM.

[MithMorchaint]

You're really not getting much of an advantage...1.7 to 1.

...that is still enough to make the difference, though I see what you're saying. And correct me if I'm wrong, but a ratio of 2 to 1 would mean I'm halving the force, right? So I mean...that's not bad.

why not put a two-sided pull handle on the bolt? I bet you could still pull the spring easily, since the force multiplier you're using isn't very large.

That's still basically what it was before...I mean, what's the difference between that and using both hands on the original cocking handle? It's still almost the exact same motion, no force recution, and additionally, that would be an incredibly awkward cocking motion. It might work, but it's not what I'm looking for.

The feedback is helpful, but I do want to keep the lever system. the 1.7 to 1 might not seem like much, but in practice it makes a world of difference.


I also just went outside and ranged it. 75-80 feet, consistently. Not very good...think Carbon's right about the seals. Opening it up as soon as I finish this post and taking a look.

[telekinetic]

I suspect that you are exceeding the capabilities of the stock barreling system, rather than the seals. There's only so much a dart can accelerate unless you have a long barrel.

Also, it's not better than pulling with both hands, if you are bracing the butt against, say, your stomach or something. But if you put that pull handle on it, you could cock it like you were drawing a bow...a very strong, easy, intuitive motion.

The advantage over just pulling on a bolt side is you're applying pure tension to the bolt.

Edited by telekinetic, 03 August 2007 - 06:06 PM.

[Carbon]

I was wondering, was there a reason why you put the gold piece so far up on the silver handle? You could greatly increase your mechanical advantage (as well as reduce the stress on the frame of your LS) by doing this:



This way, the silver piece would push the gold piece more back than down, making it easier to push. The only disadvantage is that it would increase the throw of the handle.

[Maeric]

OH! Why you dirty little....!!!!! I am going to have to beat you with something! God! i was going to do this! Oh, meh. Nice job anyway man. Your second design should work much better than the first.

Oops. Thats cartoons idea.

GAH!!!! Carbon's idea... ah, well whatever.

Edited by Maeric, 04 August 2007 - 12:31 PM.

[Shorty]

Thats a ticking timebomb waiting to blow I tell ya.

[MithMorchaint]

I suspect that you are exceeding the capabilities of the stock barreling system, rather than the seals. There's only so much a dart can accelerate unless you have a long barrel.

I actually went ahead and put some e-tape on the plunger tonight and it made a HUGE difference, though I agree that a longer barrel might make this work better...I'll certainly look into it. I've got asuch a backlog of things to do to this gun now, gonna take a while to get it all done.

Also, it's not better than pulling with both hands, if you are bracing the butt against, say, your stomach or something. But if you put that pull handle on it, you could cock it like you were drawing a bow...a very strong, easy, intuitive motion.

The advantage over just pulling on a bolt side is you're applying pure tension to the bolt.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Yes, that might work, but I rather like having the system take some of the effort out of it.

I was wondering, was there a reason why you put the gold piece so far up on the silver handle? You could greatly increase your mechanical advantage (as well as reduce the stress on the frame of your LS) by doing this:

Not a bad idea. I'll try moving the gold piece down a notch or two in the morning to see what it's like. I have a suspicion that it's going to push the silver bar REALLY far forward though...but that might not be a bad thing. I'll take some pics in the morning when I do it. I only put it where I did because it seemed the most comfortable place for it, in terms of pitching the handle forward.

OH! Why you dirty little....!!!!! I am going to have to beat you with something! God! i was going to do this! Oh, meh. Nice job anyway man.

Haha, I figured other people had thought of it, just never seen it done. At least now you know that it works . I'd love to see how you do it, though, make sure to post some pics. Probably be prettier than mine, as well .

Thats a ticking timebomb waiting to blow I tell ya.

I would tend to agree with you, if only because I haven't reinforced the parts inside of it yet. Once that's done it should be pretty solid.



I mentioned it at the beginning, but I put some e-tape on the plunger to give it a better seal on the tube. Sure enough, I'm getting up around 100 feet now (about 95-100). When I go to work on it tomorrow to reinforce some pieces inside, I can work on that a little bit more.

Thanks again for all of the replies, you're all thinking of things I had totally missed.

[Carbon]

Not a bad idea. I'll try moving the gold piece down a notch or two in the morning to see what it's like. I have a suspicion that it's going to push the silver bar REALLY far forward though...but that might not be a bad thing. I'll take some pics in the morning when I do it. I only put it where I did because it seemed the most comfortable place for it, in terms of pitching the handle forward.

Just cut the gold part shorter. I had to erase part of it to do the Photoshop work, so you'll have to hacksaw off some in order to keep the silver part from canting 20 degrees forward.

Edited by Carbon, 03 August 2007 - 10:26 PM.