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VANS Are Not Slugs Safer and softer metal free slugoids

#46 User is offline   Langley 

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:53 AM

I don't really expect to hear anyone refer to them on NH as CANS or HANS. Should anyone decide to start calling them 'bans' on this forum, I may have to give them a comprehensive lesson on the meaning of the word, just to remove any ambiguity.
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#47 User is offline   HasreadCoC 

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 10:23 AM

View PostLangley, on 26 April 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

I don't really expect to hear anyone refer to them on NH as CANS or HANS. Should anyone decide to start calling them 'bans' on this forum, I may have to give them a comprehensive lesson on the meaning of the word, just to remove any ambiguity.

Why would anyone call them BANS (NRev), CANS (NHQ), or PANS (MHA site)? They're obviously called VANS.

But really, they may as well be called ΣANS. Easiest just to call them Not-A-Slugs

 Daniel Beaver, on 07 October 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

I'm the only respectable person here. The rest of the NIC are pretty much just child molesters.


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#48 User is offline   Gears 

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 10:26 AM

View PostHasreadCoC, on 26 April 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Why would anyone call them BANS (NRev), CANS (NHQ), or PANS (MHA site)? They're obviously called VANS.

But really, they may as well be called ΣANS. Easiest just to call them Not-A-Slugs

Or we can just call them Darts-That-No-One-Is-Every-Going-To-Use.

 TED, on 16 May 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

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#49 User is offline   HasreadCoC 

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 10:48 AM

View PostGears, on 26 April 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Or we can just call them Darts-That-No-One-Is-Every-Going-To-Use.

Ever*

Oh, I dunno, if not for the drilling-a-hole-in-the-foam part, and assuming we could have the mix be soft enough that no felt is needed, I could see using them. What with the ease of dispensing with a plastic bag, and the possible low-cost bulk-purchase options of the filling (compared to ordering washers and felt), I could see using them. As with most anything, there is room for improvement.

This post has been edited by HasreadCoC: 26 April 2012 - 10:48 AM

 Daniel Beaver, on 07 October 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

I'm the only respectable person here. The rest of the NIC are pretty much just child molesters.


AKA: ObiWonTwo on Nerfrevolution, and most of the rest of the internet for that matter.....
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#50 User is offline   KaneTheMediocre 

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 02:42 PM

View PostHasreadCoC, on 26 April 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Ever*

Oh, I dunno, if not for the drilling-a-hole-in-the-foam part, and assuming we could have the mix be soft enough that no felt is needed, I could see using them. What with the ease of dispensing with a plastic bag, and the possible low-cost bulk-purchase options of the filling (compared to ordering washers and felt), I could see using them. As with most anything, there is room for improvement.


Definitely lots of room for improvement. Right now I'm experimenting with different types of felt, to see what works best in the blaster and during the manufacturing process. The polyurethane goo is so far much easier to work with than silicone, and cures to about the same hardness. The felt pads are easy enough to make with a properly sized and sharpened tube, but some of my felt pads have turned out inexplicably larger than expected, which can cause problems with the thicker, denser felts I have been playing with. In any case, adding the felt is a trivial amount of work in my current process, and if I have the blank cutting and drilling process automated (Very doable, and probably would have been done by now had I not been crippled for the last couple months), then the remaining steps are less time consuming than making slugs.

I don't really expect these to be adopted as a DIY dart for the majority of nerfers, but I would like safe, metal free, and hopperable darts to be mass-produced for others to purchase. Right now I'm trying to do this myself, but I'd be just as pleased to see someone else pull it off, at which point I'd try to sell them a lot of foam.
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#51 User is offline   snickers 

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 01:14 PM

My VANS are done drying. I did some test firing with them compared to slugs. Slugs get better accuracy and range compared to vans which get 5-10ft less range and blow more in the wind. Perhaps we could put an air soft bb in, which would increase ranges and accuracy, and still keep VANS metal free.
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#52 User is offline   Ambience 327 

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 01:59 PM

View Postsnickers, on 28 April 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Perhaps we could put an air soft bb in, which would increase ranges and accuracy, and still keep VANS metal free.


That would only help if the airsoft BB was more dense (i.e. heavier) than the silicone/goo, otherwise, just like with hot glue, you aren't really going to see any benefit.
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#53 User is offline   KaneTheMediocre 

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 06:29 PM

View PostAmbience 327, on 28 April 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

That would only help if the airsoft BB was more dense (i.e. heavier) than the silicone/goo, otherwise, just like with hot glue, you aren't really going to see any benefit.


This, and the goal is more so about not having any hard material in the dart so that the dart wont ruin people even when it's horribly broken.

Also, I'm curious what weight your slugs and VANS are. Mine are about the same weight (.8g ish)

It would be nice, and is probably possible, to make VANS that perform as well as slugs. I doubt that mine do, but I still think that it is a good tradeoff for having ammo that is not embarrassing to show people from outside the hobby.
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#54 User is offline   Siarnaq 

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:19 PM

View PostKaneTheMediocre, on 28 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

I'm curious what weight your slugs and VANS are. Mine are about the same weight (.8g ish)


My VANS were like 0.5g, at most. I'll go measure a slug in a few minutes, but I'm pretty sure the VANS were way lighter.
(EDIT: Yep, my slugs were 0.8g.)
Granted, I didn't get enough silicone in them, but I wouldn't think what I missed would make that much of a difference. Maybe it's cause I was using the kind of silicone used to make oogoo(GE 1?), so that I could try that out as well. I don't think that'd make a difference, though.

Quote

I still think that it is a good tradeoff for having ammo that is not embarrassing to show people from outside the hobby.


Yeah, pretty much.

This post has been edited by Siarnaq: 29 April 2012 - 01:23 PM

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#55 User is offline   KaneTheMediocre 

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:42 PM

View PostSiarnaq, on 29 April 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Granted, I didn't get enough silicone in them, but I wouldn't think what I missed would make that much of a difference. Maybe it's cause I was using the kind of silicone used to make oogoo(GE 1?), so that I could try that out as well. I don't think that'd make a difference, though.


How deep / what size are your holes? I doubt that silicone caulking varies in density by more than 10%. Also, did you pick out any chunks of foam that stayed in your hole? Did you miss volume by leaving a bubble at the bottom, or by not filling to the brim?

On an unrelated note, superglue can be used to attach felt to very crude polyurethane domes.
Posted Image
These involved a lot of felt glued to my fingers, didn't come out very domey, and feel like they would hurt as much as a 5/16" dome (which is pretty much what they were). So treat this as a lesson of what not to do.

edit:
I'm also finding that my length is unusually critical. For ease of production, the blanks are all 40mm, but the darts don't feed at 40mm in my PAC--They must be cut down to about 32mm, then they work just fine. Normally I don't think that length would have been a problem, even with my fairly rigid foam.

This post has been edited by KaneTheMediocre: 29 April 2012 - 01:55 PM

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#56 User is offline   Langley 

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:31 PM

Can you approximate the volume of silicone you're using in your darts? Just based on the hole dimensions from the first post, I'm getting 0.0287621 - 0.0383495 cubic inches. If you can provide more accurate information, or a volume that you're aiming for, a volume you're trying to stay under, etc. that would be helpful.
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#57 User is offline   KaneTheMediocre 

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:40 PM

Based on the 7/16" deep hole I was aiming for, and a 5/16" actual diameter hole

.4375in * 3.14 * ((5in / 32)^2) * (2.54 (cm/in)^3) = 0.549602763 cm^3

This volume does not include any silicone that seeps into the felt, and that the hole was perfectly clean (Mine are not). I do not know the exact density of the silicone or polyurethane, but Google teaches me that silicone rubber is typically 1-1.3g/cm^3. So call the volume .65 to account for seepage and extra foam gouging, and split the difference ans call the density 1.15, and the projected weight of the silicone alone is about .75g, consistent with my total dart weight of .8g (ish).

Lately I have been using polyurethane, which according to one source has a density of 1.25 g / cm^3. So perhaps slightly denser, but not much.

This post has been edited by KaneTheMediocre: 29 April 2012 - 05:45 PM

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#58 User is offline   Siarnaq 

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:49 PM

View PostKaneTheMediocre, on 29 April 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

How deep / what size are your holes? I doubt that silicone caulking varies in density by more than 10%. Also, did you pick out any chunks of foam that stayed in your hole? Did you miss volume by leaving a bubble at the bottom, or by not filling to the brim?


All of the above problems, on different darts. I don't think I got one good one out of the batch. The silicone I used flowed super uncontrollably. Not sure why. Maybe I'll try and find some of that polyeurethane stuff. My holes are almost exactly 1cm deep.

Quote

I'm also finding that my length is unusually critical. For ease of production, the blanks are all 40mm, but the darts don't feed at 40mm in my PAC--They must be cut down to about 32mm, then they work just fine. Normally I don't think that length would have been a problem, even with my fairly rigid foam.


I'll start using that length, I guess. Since you cut them down after they're completed, do you cut the entire dart to that length, or just the foam itself?
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#59 User is offline   KaneTheMediocre 

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:39 PM

View PostSiarnaq, on 29 April 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

All of the above problems, on different darts. I don't think I got one good one out of the batch. The silicone I used flowed super uncontrollably. Not sure why. Maybe I'll try and find some of that polyeurethane stuff. My holes are almost exactly 1cm deep.
I'll start using that length, I guess. Since you cut them down after they're completed, do you cut the entire dart to that length, or just the foam itself?


32mm is just the length of the foam. 1cm is .391", which is only slightly less than the .437 i was going for. Low viscosity silicone, which I recommended for better grip on the foam, flows without the ability to start or stop quickly, making dartmaking a nightmare. Now that I've discovered that the more viscous polyurethane also sticks to the foam, I have had vastly less problems with the filling process.

Edit / Update:

One other advantage of the polyurethane over silicone is that you can glue stuff to it. Superglue forms an excellent bond between cured polyurethane and wool felt, as well as polyurethane and the sticky side of the adhesive felt dots. Unfortunately, the adhesive on the felt does not stick well to cured polyurethane without the addition of superglue.

This post has been edited by KaneTheMediocre: 30 April 2012 - 10:03 AM

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