here's mine (nothing spectacular).....


Buzz Bee RFR (2x)
Lanard Max Shot (modded with removable barrels - a single shot and a turret made from an Ertl rapid fire blowgun)
NF (modded)
Wookiee Bowcaster (modded)
Lanard Speed Loader
Ertl FS 1010 Rifle

plus, I managed to kill a Buzz Bee Air Bazooka and a Tek 6

Y'know, this mod really makes me think about what can be done with the RFR, Mustang 6, and Clip Tek. If you can remove the Buzzbee shells from the Doubleshot, is it possible to remove them from the other Buzzbee blasters out there? The Mustang 6 would probably end up being better than the Maverick, and the Clip Tek would be awsome. We could probably squeeze 70' of so out of the RFR, and it would all be shell-less! Awsome job, I agree, best Double Shot mod I've seen.

I can't comment on the other blasters but I doubt that breech/CPVCing the RFR would make any improvements - the problem is the tiny plunger - there's no cure for that. In fact, I'm not sure that the ranges would differ from the cpvc shell mod and there would definitely be a loss in terms of RoF

very nice job on getting around the gravity-fed clip with the cpvc couplers. Also good idea with the deodorant stick clips. Like GeneralPrimevil, I switched to shorter darts (a little over 1.5in) so the dimensions may not be ideal for me but neither is the current clip on my BBB. I suppose, I could easily add "filler" or some custom "walls" to accomodate my darts.

Great work!


EDIT:

P.S. are you worried at all about your weighted stefan falling into the chamber? You may have already considered something like this but I ended up tying some fishing line to my CPVC weight (for "pushing" darts down) to limit how far it falls. Its also tied it to a little bead on the outside of the clip - a pull handle when I'm reloading. Just a thought.

Oh and maybe I can count or somthing, but my real quick estemate says 3 sentences, but what the hell do I know.

Clearly, you can count but perhaps you should work on spelling (as per the COC).

Better yet, try not to clog up a thread by adding purely pointless sarcasm. Your earlier post (describing the cocking action etc) was useful. The following one wasn't.

So what do I know? I've only been here a few months, I don't post that much and I don't belong to any other forums. But in my profession (science), only peer-reviewed material is published for mass consumption. Although this ensures that all published material is relatively bullshit-free, this is a proces that takes way too long to be effective for a forum. However, another hallmark of the exchanges of ideas/opinions in science is that (barring a few "flame-like" articles), any papers that are not on point are pretty much dismissed by the community. That is, nobody cites them and an increasing number of researchers learn to ignore their work. So basically, when a researcher starts talking bullshit, other scientists are smart enough to stop listening. This phenomoenon is not (by any stretch) specific to research; it happens in music, arts and business (etc.) as well.
I'm wondering if that can apply to forums too. Sure, seeing countless repeats of pointless posts is annoying but (for a non-mod) member, it takes less time to read a stupid post than to reply to it. I'm sure most have started to figure out certain members who are less "productive" than others. I have. And, accordingly, I stop reading posts from these people. I guess I'm in agreement with Duxbarian; if we don't bother with stupid posts, then that's punishment enough. And the remedy is not in the hands of moderators but everyday members.

I've played PB only a handful of times and I've never airsofted. Both are (sound like) pretty good fun but like a few others said, its alot easier and cheaper to mod nerf guns - which I'm starting to think I enjoy more than actually firing my guns. That means more cash for my many other sports/hobbies/recreation.

I don't think age has anything to do with it. I'm a 30 year old, married, PhD student with a social life who enjoys (and just discovered) nerf. And I'm not sure but I don't really recall many Nerf guns being around when I was 15. Maybe the bow n arrow.....

OK I am Tired of people on this site that live in America I ENVY you guys so much all your stores are up to date with the finest firearms(nerf guns). Me I live in Toronto and I am tired of walking into a common toystore
(toys toys toys, Toys R us) And they don't have Jacksquat.
Is there anybody in Toronto or north york area that knows a good nerf retailer?

I live in the philippines. Seriously, you shouldn't be complaining.

rock on! I'm Filipino too. Mabuhay! I live in Canada though. what kind of blasters are available to you there?

Hahahahaha, that's cute.

Lot's of girls tell me I'm that.
to below: 10 posts in a day is enough? I'll try to edit, but for me that's less than 1 post an hour, well maybe 3 because I'm only on the net usually an hour, but today I went on a 4 hour rampage, I guess it got out of control. I have an average of 1.1 posts a day

You talk back to an admin like that and it'll turn into 0.0, you understand me?

Relevant to the conversation, Canada sucks. You guys don't even know how to make a cheese burger.

Guns kick ass. I own three guns. I've never killed anyone. Even if I did I wouldn't use a gun. To begin with there is too much evidence. They'll just match up the bullet, case solved. Besides, guns aren't cheap. Neither is ammo. There are far more cost efficient ways to commit murder. Besides, I'd look funny shooting a guy with a 22.

Florida sucks. Half of it is back assed southern, half of it is New Isreal and all of it is under attack by hurricanes.

Past that, I just want you Canadians to understand that A. You're not really a country, B. You only exist because we like you and you have nothing and C. you don't know what bacon is.

God help you if you ever strike oil.

Talio.

if Canada sucks then the US sucks more (ok, I'm being a bit juvenile).

But I mean George W? And I don't know what is more disturbing, the fact that the guy who lost the election became president OR the fact that after all he's done he gets re-elected (?)

I used to be into collecting bladed things when I was younger. Most weren't very good quality - good quality blades are pretty expensive. I was particularly into the Japanese swords but alot of the replica stuff is pretty much crap, the blades are the typical stainless steel "made in Taiwan" stuff. They look good but don't really have a nice balance. That's cause most have a very short tang (the portion of the steel that is hidden in the handle.

At around first-year university I started studying Japanese sword arts/ways (Kendo and Iaido) and kept up for about 4 years (Kendo - only 3 years Iai). I pawned most of the stuff I had for a Iai-to (a practice sword for Iai). These are typically alloy blades - can't be sharpened and a little flexible - but the look and feel are (so I'm told) very authentic. Because Iaido practice (the "way of drawing the sword") entails alot of use (swinging, not cutting), replicas pretty much break after a couple of weeks and their uneven balance makes for really sore wrists.

Anyway, I haven't kept up but I still keep the Iaito on display. The fittings are plain black and its got a pretty nice tsuba (the circular handguard) molded in a design that looks like a crane with spread wings. I also have a spare tsuba that is pretty plain but it was used by my (former) Sensei so I keep it around for sentimental reasons. I always told myself that "when" I got to a reasonable skill level I would use it - yeah right!

I also keep a folding (lockback) knife for my camping/hiking stuff. Its made by Cold Steel. It cost me an arm and a leg but its definitely the strongest/most reliable blade I've owned.

I have an old balisong (that's the filipino name for a butterfly knife). The handle is ox horn/brass but is coming apart. The blade is very strong but quite rusty. These are actually illegal in Canada but I only keep it at home.

Also I have two machetes. One I got when I was doing research in Trinidad (a Martindale brand). Everybody there (including old ladies) uses them as all-purpose gardening/farming tools. That one still comes with me to camping trips (its a very functional camp hatchet and campfire prod). Also found my dad's old "bolo" machete from the Philippines. The thing is so rusty that it looks like it was salvaged from the Titanic. Again, not used but kept for sentimental reasons.

That's it - Sorry, I don't have pictures handy.


And my two cents on the whole ninja stuff. Though (overly) glamourized by hollywood, there's not very much account of any ninjas and any particular prowess with the sword. They were mostly spies (notably for Toyotomi Hideyoshi in the wars preceding the last Shogunate) who probably had to do some fighting but probably with a whole mish-mash of different weapons (i.e. whatever was available). So I don't think there is very much evidence of what a real "ninja sword" should look like.

Who ever reported to this forum from Toronto tell me which TRU did u go to were is it?

assuming you meant me.....

the TRU in question was the one at Bathurst and Steeles. I also just got back from the TRU in Newmarket (Upper Canada Mall) and they had all of the ones I mentioned PLUS the 3B. So, if Illadar is correct (regarding the pattern of distribution form West to East), I guess the BIg Bad Bow has officially arrived in our neck of the woods.

OK I am Tired of people on this site that live in America I ENVY you guys so much all your stores are up to date with the finest firearms(nerf guns). Me I live in Toronto and I am tired of walking into a common toystore
(toys toys toys, Toys R us) And they don't have Jacksquat.
Is there anybody in Toronto or north york area that knows a good nerf retailer?

I'm in the TO area as well. Though I too get the impression we have less selection, I think there's still a wide range of stuff you can get around here. More than enough to keep me busy trying to mod stuff.

I have even recently seen some of the more elusive blasters at a few of my local TRUs. At one of the better stocked ones, I saw the Firefly, the Dart Tag and the AT3k (twin pack). Most of the TRUs in the TO area seem to have RF20, Mav, N-Strike Unity and NFs consistently in stock. Some also have the Lanard stuff (e.g. Blast Bazooka). I have yet to spot a BBB though.

How about Wal Marts? Though almost all seem to be devoid of NERF brand blasters except for the Tech Target, they typically have the whole line of Buzz Bee blasters and some of the Lanards (Max Shot and BB - no First shot or Triple Shot). Just by luck, I managed to find a couple of old AT2ks and a Lanard Speed Loader a few months ago.

Sears and Zellers often also carry the NF and the Mav.


And my take on living in Canada vs. the US of A:
- true, we do generally have a lower crime rate in Canada but also a way smaller population; and gun crime has been popping up an awful lot in Toronto in the past few years with no signs of slowing
- I don't know whether firearms in the US or Canada are the cause of crime or are merely the symptom - but I'm glad that most Canadians don't own them
- the safest part about living in this great country of ours is not the absence of guns, but rather the existence of FREE healthcare

[/quote]
I would use a Torsion spring (they don´t wear out or become brittle as fast as rubberbands)this type of Spring is used in Mousetraps.

[/quote]



I am very intrigued about the drum-mag as well. I had tried a few things out but it never materialized (I'm clearly not as determined/clever as you are). In terms of spring ideas, I pulled apart a cheap timer (kitchen counter-top style) that I bought at the dollar store. It might be similar to the "pull-back" toy car or "wind-up" toy idea you mentioned - maybe it might provide what you need.

I'd also love to see the finished prototype in action (e.g. a video). Good work!

I only seldom get a chance to go to wars. And the handful of times I have they have been indoors with no more than 8 people.....

Previously, I used my two-headed monster (a Max Shot epoxied side by side with a Buzz Bee RFR with spare clips). The max shot is the primary weapon, the RFR covers my ass when I'm reloading or allows me to rush.

Last week though, I used a bunch of different primaries in a house-wide game of 'hunters' (I think that's what you call it) - tested out some of my new (and not so new mods): the Bowcaster/AT2k, Ertl FS 1010, SM3k, SM750. My favourite combination was a modded 3B (single shot) with a NF in my pocket. Though I suspect that I could only get away with an over-sized, single-shot primary in an indoor war because only 4 people were playing and it was almost completely dark.

Nice idea but I still think I'd like the lever better. Using the fingers on my trigger hand to work the lever, I'm sure my RoF would be much faster than pulling the bolt. I will try to shove some barrel material in there as well (I've been meaning to use some spare 9/16 brass for this purpose but haven't got around to it). Have you used it in combo with the CPVC shell mod?

and, oh yeah - I believe you meant "Rapid Fire Rifle" not the "Fast Action Rifle"? (a la Boltsniper).


EDIT: I just tried adding the 9/16 brass barrel extension - no luck. The darts barely leave the barrel (I tried 12" and 8"). I should have known better anyway, the air delivery system (small plunger + airhose) is too wimpy to utilize the brass barrel extension.

I've also been thinking a bit about the problems of a clip-in-handle system. I too was inspired by the new Boltsniper pistol. And though I think your design is really cool, its not what I was expecting to see. I thought you meant a single-handled, clip loaded blaster, rather than a double-handled one. I was thinking more along the lines of a smaller pistol (single grip and, ideally, holster friendly)

I realize that a design where the plunger and bolt are combined necessitates moving the breech/chamber and clip way forward (hence, the two-handle design). However, I've been toying with the idea of stacking the plunger tube and barrel one on top of the other. To minimize the length of the blaster while also minimizing 'dead' space between the plunger and chamber/breech, the plunger would have to be cocked by a forward motion.

Below, I've sketched out a VERY crude scheme. I envision a slide (in BLACK) being pushed forward (simultaneously cocking the spring) and moving the barrel (also in BLACK) forward and allowing a clip(BLUE)-fed dart (ORANGE) into the chamber. A stretch spring (not dEffeminateted) would pull the barrel and slide back to close the seal (by O-rings in GRAY) over the dart. I haven't figured out a very good trigger system yet. I like the way the NF catch mechanism works but don't know where I could put the catch. Obviously, the catch, trigger and plunger tube (RED) would require considerable structural support from the rest of the pistol chassis (PINK). By the way, the C-shaped piece (THIN BLACK line) connects the plunger tube and chamber. Such a piece, I plan to rip from an existing air-delivery system from a Buzz Bee RFR (but PVC coupler or even some nylon tubing could do the trick). Springs are shown in GREEN.



Not sure I will even have the time, materials, tools or SKILL to try to pull something like this off but I was thinking of using an NF plunger tube. Size of ammo would have to be pretty small (e.g. 1.5 inch micro stefans or shorter) to be able to even comfortably use the grip.

Clearly, this is just an idea but I wanted to know what you guys think (on theoretical grounds)


On a related note, and more along the lines of Ronster's original design, I was thinking about trying to mod one of my Buzz Bee RFRs (I bought a bunch for $3.50 each) because in a way, it seems 'pre-adapted' to a plunger/bolt combo and already uses a clip (+ shell system).



What I had in mind was replacing the existing bolt with a plunger tube and rigging up a new trigger/catch mechanism. Of course, the stock would be removed
and fitted with a pistol grip. The cocking lever would not be necessary as the plunger tube/bolt would be pulled back manually or with some type of slide on top. The clip and shell-ejection mechanism would still work (for the most part) as is. This would make it comparable in size (slightly longer and deeper) than a MAV or a maybe a PC (? I have yet to actually see one). I guess still a little bulky but the more direct delivery of air should mean improved range (again, I'd try to use an NF plunger in place of the bolt but this would require some dremelling to widen the bolt shaft - and an extension to the plunger shaft).

Again, only speculation at this point, but more in the ballpark of what I think I can actually build/mod.

Pretty cool. Though, I was thinking you could try what Nerf Monkey assumed you did - let the sliding rod pump the SM1500. Or at least change the pump handle on the SM1500 (to allow for easier access to the pump).

How does the trigger for the 1.5k work? It would be cool if you could devise one that can be fired with the front handle/grip.

Is it front-heavy?

A name...... "Orthrus" (the two-headed monster in Greek mythology)....but it sounds way too much like "orifice"...

So stupid easy, it works! Put 24 micros {I used stock} in the box (3 rows of 8).
It works pretty well until there are like 4 left then it gets a little harder.

I agree; "stupid" is right. I can't believe you even bothered to start this thread. Seriously, a (second rate) writeup for a box to carry darts in? If you choose to use this for yourself, fine - but I don't think anyone with an intact cerebral cortex really needs instructions on how to cut out some cardboard from a box. Most people use this forum with more discretion (i.e. blasters made from scratch).

cool idea, I think I'll try that. I suppose another advantage to list in your "why"s is that, like stock darts, they probably won't leave the same welts that a hotglue/steel shot stefan would. Which equals less dents in the drywall and safe for the little kids.

Does the Plasti-Dip pour well? I'm wondering whether the material could be applied to fbr with a half-inch (or so) drilled out of the centre. Dripping it in a hole (with disposaable pipettes?) in fbr might mean that the tip wouldn't be of larger diameter than the rest of the dart and, thus, the dart could be used in barrel-modded blasters. And presumably, it could still be used in combination with weights to get heavier stefans but with a slightly friendlier punch (compared to hotglue).

In reply to Precision Nerfer:

quoting Precision Nerfer:
"[/quote]
Um, I would say "schmoe" is a liar... really man, no one is that bad."

- you missed the point - this (as I said) is an example using fake data. There are many plausibile reasons 'Joe' and 'Schmoe' could get different results (e.g. if each uses a slightly different standard or if fired under different ambient temperature) without having to invoke lying. Get outside, measure stuff. You'll see its an empircal truism that virtually everything exhibits alot of variation- figuring out 'why' is the trick.
But providing that both nerfers stick to their own standard while firing both the stock and the modded NF, useful (objective comparisons can be made).


quoting Precision Nerfer:
"Um, why should we mod then? Think about it. If we aren't doing it right now, then why even do a modification? "

- well, believe it or not, some people actually mod because they think it is fun and, as adjudged by them, it improves the quality of their nerfing experience. And they don't care about ranges in terms of somebody else's estimation.


quoting Precision Nerfer:
"It might get 30 feet less then what is said! "

- apparently.


quoting Precision Nerfer:
If we are not going to claim range, what's to tell a good mod from a great one?"

-this is exactly my point; you can't tell a good one if everyone measures things differently


quoting Precision Nerfer:
":Estimation from the mods done?"

- that would be a start. I don't know how other people measure things but I know what my NF or Max Shot perform like. A comparison to those mean more to me than distances. But like I said, not every one does the same mods but EVERYONE has fired their blasters stock (or have access to stock blasters).

quoting Precision Nerfer:
"We have to give at least a general range claim or else we just WON'T bother making a mod write up...."

- you might think so but I disagree. I've learned alot over the years on this site and it had nothing to do with ranges. Everyone who mods probably knows that writeups are always useful (ad that has nothing to do with posted ranges) and, similarly, many have learned that is is also best to trust your own instinct and know-how when it comes to deciding on what mods to do.

quoting Precision Nerfer:
"it would be meaningless without ranges."
- I think that is a pretty short-sighted view of modding/nerfing. I think posting the ranges as people have is the thing that is meaningless.

people on the NIC get into verbal wars about shit like ranges. If you don't believe it, fine - disscout the person who you think is lying or




In reply to Badger:

I'm not sure why you seem to take offense to my comments but you are, of course entitled to a rebuttal (and of course, I will doe the same).


quoting Badger:
"Hey Ambushbug, I think you took this topic the wrong way. I am not trying to "standardize" how one would test the ranges of a modified blaster, rather, I was simply giving my evaluation of his mod so as to dismiss all of the constant
flaming that was occuring every time PN talked about it."

- I suppose you're right - your main point was not standardization. So I guess I misunderstood. However, you seem to have also misunderstood my point. My point was not to 'attack' your approach to reviewing a blaster to evaluate PN's claims. As I said, it is valuable. I am really getting at the issue of "range testing" in standardized way and, while my comment may have been a bit tangental, it is just a general reaction to the issue of 'proving' ranges.


quoting Badger:
"Now I am going to pick apart your assessment of why my testing was not done in a way to be easily duplicated, whereas it is easy to replicate my results and my testing styles if one is careful and watchful of what they do.
[quote]various darts were used[/quote]
Two, not various, darts were used. PN supplied the darts that he made for the gun, which were CDTS (they are not considered stock anymore as they have an altered tip). The stefans were also used to get a view of distances when the gun fires the most commonly used type of ammo for a modified gun."

- as I said in the original post, it is understandable that modded blasters/darts were used in the review of PN's NF, blaster and dart were designed for one another. But the method of evaluation doesn't allow someone (who doesn't have the same modded blaster stefans) to have any information independent of your review.


quoting Badger:
"[quote]performance depends on air temperature/pressure (as Badger alludes to)[/quote]
Where did I ever mention pressure? I also never mentioned air temperature, rather I was referring to ambient temperature. I have seen marked changes in performance in springers when they are subjected to long periods in both hot and cold climates. There was no eulding."

- I guess I misunderstood here too. I thought you were implicitly referring to factors (temperature/pressure etc.) that chemists and physicists (or engineers) have shown to influence all physical properties/measurement. Why would temperature & air pressure/density not be relevant to "ambient" condiitions? I though that was what you meant in the comment regarding Which is why you made the comment regarding playing "up in the mountains (well above 2000 feet) on a very hot and dry day" Surely alot of these factors probably have relatively small effects for processes at the velocities we are interested in but from the standpoint of making inferences, this is worth serious consideration.


quoting Badger:
"[quote]height/angle is not exactly controlled (e.g. "steadying with both hands" is hardly objective)[/quote]
I am 6'1" in height holding the gun at eye-level, so at a level of 5'7". As for the angle and your statement that the angle is not exactly controlled, once again, I am not developing a standard for testing, but the angle was controlled. Unlike over 90% of the nerfers, I do have a good understanding of how to stabilize a gun to prevent recoil. A real firearm has alot of recoil due to the bullet being propelled by a gunpowder charge so the recoil can't all be prevented, while a Nerf blaster that has been modified has such a small amount of recoil in comparison that it could be steadied with just a small amount of effort. I am trained to use both handguns, rifles, and automatics and I am an expert marksman with all three as per the standards of the USAF, so I think I know how to fire a Nerf blaster and steady it to eliminate the recoil as well as to keep it at a level trajectory."

- I'm sure you do know how to fire a real gun (I don't, nor do as you say "90% of nerfers"). So what? I'm a scientist by profession who gets paid to be objective (and teach university students to be objective). Still so what? One needs neither firearms training or a PhD to be able to say that a handheld setup is not very precise.
And of course a nerf blaster doesn't fire like a real gun does (who said it did?). But that has nothing to do with precision/repeatability.


quoting Badger:
"[quote]comparison to the modded max shot[/quote]
This comparison was done simply to verify that the measurements were correct and to show that the NF was not shooting 100 feet or better. It was not so much meant as a comparison. More of a guide. I used it as a simple test to see if it was possible for the gun to fire 100 feet or not. Once it didn't meet or surpass my MaxShot in the range tests, I proceeded with the individual measurements of the NF's performance. Just to let you know, my MaxShot simply has the AR sawed off, but the original front cone that the AR was attached to is still there. A piece of 21/32" brass was rammed onto the internal airflow stem that is found under the front cone. This acted as a coupler for my style of barrels. I then rammed (literally) the cone back into place, disabled the safety that is inside the gun, and screwed it back together. The spring is stock as is the rest of the gun. My barrels use the same PETG that PN used in his NF. Yes it is a different class of blaster as opposed to the NF, but it was only used as a ruler for what 100 feet looks like."

"I also didn't do a distance breakdown as the shots from both my MaxShot and his NF were in a consistent range with a simple +/- 3' range of error or miscalculation. No one can completely eliminate human error."

- of course human error cannot be eliminated (and here, the "error" is not necessarily of human origin, darts perform differently too), that's why there is a whole branch of stuy called statistics


quoting Badger:
"There is no need for a breakdown unless one shot flies much farther or shorter than the rest."

- not true, the variance (not just outliers or "one flying much farther than the rest") is important for making objective assessment of differences between two things (e.g. range of blasters). One can only tell whether one fires 'significantly' farther than another by knowing what's a big difference and a small difference (based on the standard deviation, i.e. determines what is a little and what is alot). That's what statistical tests do: they judge whether a difference is a little or alot based on an objective (i.e. data-based) criterion.


On another note, I never tried to measure distances at DCNO as it was an outdoors event, it had just recently stopped raining prior to the start of the war, and it was quite windy. Any ranges measured there would have been subjective, but when you are surrounded by at least 6 other experienced nerfers who, like yourself, have seen what a gun that can shoot 100 feet should look like, and the gun you just fired doesn't perform as such, it isn't subjective anymore as it is verified by multiple experienced modders and players.

- I know you didn't measure ranges at DCNO - nor should you have. You have better things to do, like NERF. Yes, its nice to have other people around to observe the results but it does not affect the subjectivity (unless they all indepedently tested/measured ranges). I never said you were a liar (which the only thing bystanders can guard against), I just said the range testing was not objective (e.g we all do it slightly differently and, thus, are expected to get slightly different results).


In closing, you picked apart my style of evaluating the NF without having any knowledge of what my personal background was, my experiences, or my knowledge base.

- I'm not judging your experiences or your background or your opinions. I can accept these at face value. I'm just pointing out that there is alot of subjectivity involved that provides a bystander (e.g. one who hasn't actually fired PN's NF) little data that he/she could actually use to compare with blasters he/she HAS fired (which is what I thought on of the purposes of sharing this information was). As your signature says, "you're brutally honest". Great - so am I. Reviews and statistics are separate things. Like reading a car review oniine: half is the opinion of the person who got to test drive it and others are actual facts/numbers (e.g. 0 to 60 mph in ...)


I personally don't give a fuck about ranges either. If my MaxShot can hit a person that is running away from me into the woods and tag him in the back of the neck, it is good. If it is accurate enough to fire through a split tree and an opening in a bush that is only about 2" in diameter and hit someone, it is good. Some people are genuinely honest about their ranges. I take each person's word on a case-by-case basis.

-no argument there


- Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread - but feel free to argue with me further (via PM).

My friend has these, and they can shoot, without modification, taggers and stephans. Hell, you can even shoot a AA battery out of it. It's basically a slingshot (NOT a nerf slingshot) with a trigger. It flings the ammo with about the same force as a well modded Nitefinder. They are pretty cool, but my friend never showed me how well the original tag-balls work. I think that he said they can go 50 ft flat.

That's all well and good, but what is the accuracy? There's no point in slinging something for 60+ feet if it won't hit its target.

whether its slingshots or NERF, we all know its often the ammo - not the launcher - that determines accuracy.
In any case, if the ammo is indeed less than ideal, a trigger-style slingshot that can launch crappy ammo 50 feet might have some mod potential for shooting nerf darts/stefans.

It looks to me as if these have no purpose. For $7, I can get a Nite Finder and hit 70+ feet. For $15, I can get a Max Shot and hit 130+ feet. For $30, I can get a Longshot and hit 100+ feet with an awesome rate of fire. These are all cheaper options than a $42 "Tagball" gun that only hits 70 feet. They are all better options. Therefore, Tagball guns are not a reasonable option for the average Nerfer, and will not appear in many arsenals.

I agree that the price tag (if that is indeed the price) is steep but my interest isn't in 'bang for the buck' - its the adventure/risk of modding something new (i.e. different from the status quo). Personally, I could give a rat's ass about all the blasters people get boners over once they come out (e.g. the Maverick, the Longshot, Spidey/Venom dart tag set) because everyone and their grandma is working on modding it. I'm glad people are shelling out $$ and investing time/creativity in modding them but I don't want to bother with them (most of the time).

I'm really more interested in the ammo than the blaster but how people should spend their money is only of concern to the spender. If I recall, people said the ERTL pump shotgun was overpriced but I know of a few people who'd swear by them (myself included). Anyway, this thread wasn't intended as a "what is your opinion on this blaster" thread. It was (as indicated in the subheader) more of an "can anyone tell me anything about this" thread.

I'm not the "average nerfer", nor is my arsenal.

First off - for the most part, I'm not so concerned with the ranges people post because, the way people measure ranges is so subjective, absolute ranges reported mean pretty much jack-shit. Not to mention that some just outright lie.

In principle, I like the fact that Badger is trying to 'standardize' ways to measure ranges but, despite his best intentions, the measurement is not done in a way that is easy to duplicate anyway.

The following problems make comparisons difficult:
- various darts were used
- performance depends on air temperature/pressure (as Badger alludes to)
- height/angle is not exactly controlled (e.g. "steadying with both hands" is hardly objective)
- not to mention that better summary statistics are required to make a fair assessment - its not just the 'average distance" but also the 'variance' in ranges that determines performance
- comparison to the modded max shot makes some sense in terms of allowing Badger to get a feel but that doesn't provide much objective information (e.g. Badger's mod is not identical to another person's mod). In actuality (this will sound counterintuitive at first) one should use an unmodded blaster and stock darts as a reference. For example, if Badger compared PN's NF ranges to a stock NF firing stock darts (so long as the testing for both blasters was done at the same temperature/height/angle), then this would provide a more objective comparison because, I anyone could make a similar comparison between their own mod and a stock NF/darts.
That is, if I knew my mod shot 15% (on average) further than a stock NF with stock darts (at any given temperature) but Badger's mod shot 20% further than a stock NF, then I'd know Badger's mod gets better ranges than mine. This would be true regardless of whether or not we test fired at different temperature/pressure etc. (even if my ABSOLUTE ranges were higher)


I'll illustrate with a fake dataset:


Assume two nerfers (Joe and Schmoe) live in very diferent climates. Joe lives in a place where it is hot and humid. Schmoe lives in a place that is cool and dry. Both agree to test their modded NFs against a stock NF, firing stock darts at the same height/angle.

Joe's ranges:

modded NF:
67'
59'
55'
57'
60'

AVERAGE = 59.6'
STANDARD DEVIATION = 4.56'


stock NF:
45'
44'
40'
41'
43'

AVERAGE = 42.6'
STANDARD DEVIATION = 2.07'

_____


Schmoe's ranges:

modded NF:
81'
80'
65'
77'
88'

AVERAGE = 78.2'
STANDARD DEVIATION = 8.41'


stock NF:
77'
75'
67'
69'
70'

AVERAGE = 71.6'
STANDARD DEVIATION = 4.22'

------


so who's mod is better? I'd say that Joe's is better (despite having lower ABSOLUTE ranges - this is probably accounted for by the climate he lives/nerfs in). Joe's mod improved the range of a stock NF by 39.9% while Schmoe's mod improved the range of a stock NF by only 9.2%. Furthermore, the standard deviation of Joe's ranges (4.56') are about half of the ranges found by Schmoe (8.41'), suggesting that Joe's mod is also more consistent.

There are some simple statistical tests that could even be applied to such comparisons but I suspect that would be beyond the scope of the 'average' nerfer - but my only point is that there ARE ways to perform standardized tests of mods (not that I think anyone would ever implement this). I am also aware of the conundrum - who the hell would mod something to fire stock darts!!!

Again, my point is that if people want ways to compare the efficacy of their mods, there ARE ways! But if you won't do it right, then DON'T bother claiming ranges because they are pretty much meaningless (the way that people currently do it anyway). Besides, everyone who nerfs knows that the guy pulling the trigger is more important than the 'range' of the blaster. And anyone who mods, knows that a good mod is based on alot of things and the effectiveness of the mod is based on whether it achieves the desired SUBJECTIVE goal.

This is not to say that Badger's assessment is not a valuable 'review'. In fact, I think his comments regarding its efficacy in a war (DCNO), while subjective, is very informative. But it clearly does not provide a means for OBJECTIVE assessment things like ranges.



There is way too much talk of ranges on the NIC - sorry I just couldn't resist pointing out how ridiculous it is to see thread after thread (or flame after flame) about this shit ........



EDIT: 100th post !?!

I stumbled upon this thing while surfing the web for something completely different.

It appears to be another "safer", low tech and less messy version of paintball. Judging from the descriptions on the website, the ammo are 19mm (~ 3/4") puffballs that stick to hook/loop velcro targets (on the body or otherwise).
The 'blaster' is powered by surgical tubing (slingshot-esque) and is similar in principal to some homemades I've seen on this site.

Anyone had any experience with it? I'm intrigued about the possibility of modifying the blaster (e.g. add a plunger) to shoot darts/stefans and/or use the ammo for Nerf blasters (e.g. obviously with larger ID barrels than typically used). I'm a little skeptical of whether the ammo would have the correct weight or be able to provide a good airseal but its hard to say just from looking. The prospect of spherical but soft ammo is something that I find appealing (for gravity-fed hoppers/clips) and, if I recall, was also the impetus for a post by Tidge a long time ago. I never did hear whether or not he got a chance to try any of the ideas out.

I thought of the vertical motion of the lever and thought that a bolt attached would only swing down one inch, not enough to interfere with anything in the idea. I might buy a rfr and see if I can no shell mod...no I wouldn't I'd buy a good gun instead like two nitefinders instead...or a maverick and a spring...

I'm not sure what SHA means by "lateral motion" (lateral, at least in anatomical terms, typically refers to motion away from the middle line that runs lengthwise, front to back) though I think he's getting at the fact that, basically the 'nub' of the lever still moves in an arc, requiring one to engineer something a little fancier to pull off Lynx's idea (try it, you'll see). More importantly, however, a one-inch nub for a lever (as in Lynx's idea) doesn't provide much "leverage" at all (it's like sawing off one end of a teeter-totter) - leverage is proportional to the distance between the point of force and the fulcrum). I suspect that it would be too short to work. I think the direction connection to the bolt is more feasible but, hey, its always better to actually try than to speculate (that goes for all of us; MOD FIRST, POST CONCEPTS SECOND!)

Pretty much, the only real point to modding is making something cool yet practical for a war. By modifying a blaster to the point of it reaching its peak in awesomeness/practicability, it needs to be battle tested. Otherwise, it won't have a real purpose.

I disagree....partly. There are a few of us who seldom get to go to wars but for which modding is a creative outlet. Which, I think, means modding itself DOES serve a purpose even if it never gets used in a war. I do agree though, that the challenge is to mod something that is useful/cool/practical and that full realization/evaluation of a mod's utility can only be truly known after "battle-testing".

I don't see anything wrong with some individuals being primarily "research and development" types as long as that new inventions are shared with the community. Then, hopefully, somebody else can test whether the mod is practical.

Funny, I was just thinking about this same type of thing..... I don't know much about winter nerfing (or any outdoor nerfing at all for that matter) but after being informed by Blink182 about CFM, it seems almost like its the duty of us Canadian nerfers to "master" winter "warfare". C'mon, since when have Canadians (or Americans from the Northern states) let cold temperatures/snow stop them from having a good time. Sure there are some technical concerns but surely (and judging from some of the encouraging replies) nerf and winter are not mutually exclusive. You'd probably have to incorporate some extra rules (i.e. no snowballs, at least for the sake of the guns)

I say go for it, though from the sound of it you're already planning a war. Shit, just think of the possibilities: in addition to snow fortresses, you might be able to incorporate vehicles (e.g. toboggans, GT snow racers, tire tubes) into the war - depending on the terrain. Like the ultimate snowball fight. Hmmmm......you got me thinking this could be something REALLY good.

If you have a rfr please try something like this so this speculation ends...The rod through the lever could be further down, but the leverage would work...The faux barrel would work as a nice track for the pump and umm...yeah...

-sigh- as you speculate some more... You seem awfully sure that one could muster enough leverage with your design. But that's just an assertion until you can actually prove it (or at least have a rational explanation based on facts).

The side view's left right motion is the lateral motion...

Incorrect. The whole point of terms like "lateral", "medial", "longitudinal" etc. is that it DOES NOT depend on the angle from which one views and oject. If it did, then coining such terms would be absolutely pointless (i.e. one could always just refer to 'left' and 'right' etc.).


Back on topic: it would be cool to see a pump-action RFR from an aesthetic standpoint. Unfortunately it won't really change the ROF by much and it doesn't address the biggest problemwith the RFR - its shit range.

Stefan Shotgun shells are merely theoretical, no one has ever done it and if they have, it didn't work well enough or was too complicated to be accepted by the community.

I thought it was just common knowledge in the community. I used to use them in short-range urban wars with any of my blasters using 1/2" adapters. It pretty much halves the range, but for a five-shot spread that ricochets to fill an alleyway, it's worth it.

Toss in more weight to each Stefan bit for more range... Keep in mind you won't find most of your shotgun darts afterwards, so I'd recommend not dedicating weights to their manufacture.

I think there might be some confusion here. Many have described shotgun 'rounds' as requested in Dark's original message. But I believe Talio was responding to Dark's message header asking about "shotgun SHELLS". I guess Ompa's description of the spare barrels method is the closest thing but I have no expertise in this area.

Couldn't the orange Buzz Bee shotgun-esque shells be modded to fire "shot"? Though both the Double Shot and RFR have pretty poor air volume, so its effectiveness may be limited.

We also play with all thed lights off so it wouldnt be visible.

but presumably the monitor would be. Unless you managed to hook up a USB extension cable long enough to control the launcher (and a camera) from a different room.

Doesn't sound that useful but it sure looks like fun.

Functional, I'm sure but 'integrations' usually mean something different than merely gluing one blaster to another (see NF-sspb integration).

Slowing down the dart won't be a problem unless your string and reel are tight and slow. But if it's pretty loose then there won't be a difference in range.

seems like this would be very difficult to do. Anybody who's been fishing knows that without some decent resistance (usually weight), the line tends to tangle up in the reel or upon leaving it during casting. I imagine your average dart wouldn't be heavy enough to peel line out in a consistent way or without feeling the drag of the monofilament behind it. A heavy dart probably would but then range would suck majorly.

And who wants to wait for their dart to be reeled in while the enemy is peppering you with foam?

In any case, I'm only speculating but I remain to be convinced. Try it and show us some video.

Actually, I believe Forsakenangel24 made a working barrel silencer for his Titan. I will update this post with a link later.

He meant on spring guns. The noise comes from the plunger head's impact with the end of the plunger tube, not from air escaping the barrel.

privateer: Way to be an ass. I was giving you advice that is going to help you, should you take the time to read it.

Hey SHA: don't get all riled up. Privateer is being a bit prickly because everyone immediately called him a bullshitter. A call which, I think, he answered - so let him have his victory. I agree with your advice but it is not necesary to have the 'last word'.

Privateer: kudos - though I was willing to take your word for it from the beginning. Not because I'm particularly trusting but because 'silencing' like 'ranges' all seem particularly unquantifiable (in a standardized way) that means that its hardly worth voicing any skepticism (if its not something I could actually test myself anyway).
But seriously: "after drinking many Bud Lights"? Now THAT's something I find hard to believe; that stuff is hardly potable......

Pissbacon's http://nerfhaven.com...17&hl=bacon bow

Lukeinator's  http://nerfhaven.com...&hl=big bad bow

not to be a shameless self-promoter - actually, who am I kidding - I'm all about shameless self-promotion - but I've also posted a version of the Bacon Bow. Granted, the write up isn't as good as the original but its more along the lines of what Pat was describing (i.e. the "rear cocking" mechanism).

here's my version

I did not forget you, I simply couldn't find your mod. Sorry if that was insulting to you.

No worries. I didn't find it insulting at all. Just wanted Gho5t to be aware of it.

Wow, 12 shots! I had no idea.

Range AND high ammo load - I never guessed it could get better than the FS 1010 (pump ballgun).
Hopefully this will be available in my area.

If anyone manages to get some internal pics up, that would be great!

hmmm, I assume you've never seen this:

http://nerfhaven.com...=mountain rifle



who needs a vest when you can block shots with your teeth?

That was the first thing i did, I removed the orange tip first but do you think the barrel can be replaced? with pvc I mean recently I found a whole Batch of industrial size PVC tubing i found it and now i will never run out but im still trying to figure out how to put in a new barrel.

I also saw off the barrel in the RFR. I'm not sure if you can completely replace the barrel as (if I recall correctly), the barrel and the chamber/ejection spring are all one piece (well, two halves). I imagine you could just jam some material down the existing barrel (depending on the diameter). Though I'm not convinced that a new barrel would make it any better as range is only mediocre and the accuracy depends alot on the dart/shell. Its worth trying though, I believe the halves of that barrel unscrew - so you could easily experiment.

So Speedloaders are at:
-Fred Meyers
-Walgreens
-HEB

And that 12 shot shotgun outdoors gun thingy is at:
-Gander Mountain
-Bass Pro Shops
-Any hunting store

I think i'll just go to Fred Meyers down in the states.

I got my speedloader from Wal Mart (Toronto area) - though personally, I don't think its too spectacular. With air restrictors (only) removed, I don't think it gets more than 30 feet.

In today's culture, the NIC is in NO WAY served by making guns 'realistic' or naming them after real firearms, etc.

I am going to be making flyers to distribute on my college campus, and I know that the word 'gun', despite the context, stands a large chance of me not getting them approved.

I am going to take a hint from paintball and come up with a name that doesn't involve 'gun' (foam launchers? Dart tag?) to use on my flyer. People who know nothing about the sport can only criticize the verbage choosen, something I noticed played heavily in the news story floating around on youtube about the Assasination game.

I thought convention on NH was to use the term 'blaster' - not 'guns'. At least, that's what I refer to them as.

I think people can paint their blasters however they please - but judging from what I've read over the couple years on this forum, they definitely don't get props around here for 'realism'

I still dont understand where you can get them or if they are still being sold... What the frick is TRU? I guess im not up to date on Nerf jargon...

TRU = toys R us