This setup should be perfectly fine. I usually use these switches. They've worked for way more demanding circumstances than yours, and they are pretty compact. I watch Out of Darts' channel sometime too, but I wouldn't buy marked up batteries from him on Etsy. Here's the same battery but cheaper from hobby king. Just in case you're buying your Meishel motors from him as well. Here they are for a lower price at containment crew. The OFP cages on his Etsy seem to be the going price so that's probably fine. Your battery should be able to provide more than enough current for these motors.
- → Quack's Content
There have been 75 items by Quack (Search limited from 13-June 93)
I should have put this in my reply above. But Is the diagram above more or less how it would look wired up? And is it safe for these kinds of batteries?
Yeah that diagram looks fine. But if you're really going through this much trouble with an imr setup you might as well just get a lipo and buy and extended tray for like $5.00. cutting the little fins out of the battery tray to fit a lipo isn't really that hard. I think it's a cool idea but it just seems impractical.
The issue is that all we do is redirect the problem. Watts=Volts*Amps and so instead of choosing a bigger 3 Cell battery that could handle the amperage you recommend picking a bigger six cell battery that diverts the problem. Minimizing amperage is definitely benificial, but seems unnecessary and impractical for our use.
I see what you're saying and I get that it really only redirects the problem, but I think I'm going to try it on my latest build more out of necessity than convenience. I designed and 3d printed my own 2 stage cage for the stryfe and put hellcats as the first stage and wolverines as the second (all on a 3s). When I first tested it in a completely parallel setup I melted the inside of my high amp switch. I originally estimated that the wolverines would draw 30 to 40 amps at 3s but when I finally found a data sheet I saw that they draw 70 amps each. All totaled my setup draws 184 amps which is way more than any switch small enough for the blaster could handle. I just ordered the 6s I linked in my first post and will do a write up if it works. Obviously I would avoid this setup in the future, but I don't want to just abandon this project.
I feel like the second one is showing motors in series, sets in parallel - both pairs of motors have wires leading to/from home, but the motors themselves only have 1 path. Your idea seems sound in my not-an-engineer head; just need to make sure the diagram is correct.
Yeah the diagrams are correct. Or at least they are what I intended. The two stages are in parallel while the motors within each stage are in series.
So, you're saying since I just bought a Rapidstrike that I'm going to turn into a rapidpistol with 16 AWG, 3 switches and a LS2 with no electrical/dremel/modding/painting knowledge to my name is a bad choice..
Gonna do it anyway. Might turn out good, might turn out bad. Either way I'll have fun (hope I dont blow myself up).
From experience I know rewiring rapidstrikes with 16AWG can be a pain if your soldering isn't too good. It can be done, but is difficult for a beginner since the blaster was designed for much thinner wire. I would practice first on something like a stryfe which has the potential to be arguably better than a rapidpistol. If you want to go for it though, good luck. My first real mod was a rapidstrike/rayven integration with full rewire. It took a really long time but ended up working fine.
So I was in English Class today thinking about Nerf mods as usual when I came across an interesting solution I have been having with two stage flywheel builds. In a typical single stage build the motors are wired in parallel so that the entire voltage of the battery drops across each motor causing them to spin at their max rpm for the given voltage of the battery. However this means that the maximum current drawn by the motors in this setup is the sum of their stall currents. In a single stage setup this will top out at ~50A for the thirstiest motors and shouldn't be that much of a problem for a typical 3s battery. However in a two stage or more build with 4+ motors being used, this current draw could be over 100A! Not only is this much more than many 3s batteries are rated for, but it is incredibly dangerous. However, by rethinking the motor wiring, I think this issue can be solved. By wiring each set of motors in series and them those sets in parallel, the amount of current drawn is halved. On the flip side, double of the amount of voltage is required to spin the motors to the same RPM. I have been doing some searching and found this 6s battery which I think should be able to accomplish the job and isn't too much more expensive than a 3s. I have some diagrams below showing the difference in wiring. I'd like to know what you guys think since I'm only 85% positive on my physics.
But I looked at your mod guides and there still to hard for me. Im looking for a mod that I can do and the mods here even the esiest ones require drills and stuff I dont know how to use.
Without a soldering iron (which I'm assuming is more complex than drilling), your best bet with flywheel mods is to remove all of the purely mechanical locks and lube up the trigger. I guess you could put in 2 IMR's and 2 dummy batteries, but that's about it.
The only problem with this is that if I replace the potentiometer with a button, the ESC's have a saftey that will prevent the motors from spinning up. The ESC's need a pulse that tells them to increase the motor's rpm incrementally rather then a signal telling them to increase the motors to full rpm all of a sudden. For example, if you plug in a lipos to a power system of an rc plane or quadcopter etc, and you bind the transmitter and receiver with the throttle stick at a position besides zero throttle, the motors will not spin up to prevent any accidents. Sorry for my bad sentence structure and grammar as it's midnight and I'm tired
I thought that the safety in ESC's was designed so that if the throttle was applied instantly, then the ESC would deliver power incrimentally (or as fast as it could). Either way, your original plan should work. You might even want to try a slide potentiometer to avoid the gearing situation
I'm planning on using a 4-6s lipos since I'm going to be using brushless motors, so can I limit the voltage going to the pusher to the equivalent of a 3s (11.1 volts)
Do you have a link to the motors. If you do, that way we might be able to help you find a solution. Other than that you could run your pusher on a separate battery pack. 4-6s is kinda excessive 2-3s is more normal
I can use a servo tester and still use a button to spin up the motors. All I have to do is unsolder the potentiometer and extend its length by soldering it to wires, then replace the knob with a gear so that when I push the modified button it turns the potentiometer. I'll also have a spring in there somewhere so when I release the button the potentiometer rotates to its original position.
If you are willing to do that, you could probably just switch the potentiometer for an spdt switch like the ones used in nerf blasters normally. I've never tried it, but it might work. Someone should be able to back me up (or not) on this.
somehow fit transmitter guts and a receiver cuz i can't code for life, etc.
You can use a servo tester instead. It requires no coding you just need to hook it up to ESC's. The only downside is that now your trigger is a potentiometer and you need to twist to fire.
This is the one I have. It seems they don't make it anymore but it might fit better so you might want to find something similar.
3. Submit item links to agent. This is done a different way for each agent but usually they will give you a total without shipping and an order will be placed through them. Beware shipping is very expensive, usually upwards of $100.
You pay that much for shipping! I've bought whole blasters from there and my shipping has only been up to about $30. I use engtaobao.com. It seems really sketchy but it has worked for me.
To save the cost of brushless equipment I have a solution. You can use two motors with one ESC. As long as you pick a properly rated ESC most motors can be used with one ESC simultaneously with an equivalent motor. I used this in my second brushless motor setup.image.jpg
Perfect. I was reading up on that and I couldn't get conclusive results. My new motors are still shipping, i'll be sure to post some results when I wire them up. What motors are you running.
Also, does anyone have any idea what this http://world.taobao....67267.50.mTZWqh is? It looks like replacement motors?.
I think it's some replacement motors, some flywheels (probably with teeth), and maybe some wiring and switches although the gauge looks too thin and the switches look like stock nerf ones.
I found a weird gun at toysrus that is a zombiestrike blowgun, I can't find any photos online, It looked pretty long with a slanted front barrel and the mouthpiece had a cross design where you blow in to it.
It was on the end of an aisle and if anyone has any info I would like to know
This should help https://youtu.be/i6Wz2IP-Rd8?t=50
As I said, this took 15 minutes, and was just for me to do a preliminary test. I will add electrical tape to the outside of the bells in my next proof of concept.
I added etape o the outside of my motors. It significantly improved grip as opposed to smooth metal.
Great job following through on this. It looks like you have the motors mounted already...have you tried shoving any darts through them?
Two questions for clarification:
What makes you think that more powerful ones may be needed?
You want to look into "idling" the motors...How fast do they take to go from zero to full speed? The best brushed motors (with good batteries and wiring) can shoot a dart at near full velocity quite quickly (example). Do these motors rev like that, or is it closer to a full second or more?
Side note: What's the C-rating on that battery? The picture is to small for me to read.
My motors are only 1000 kv so I'm only getting about 11,000 rpm. I just bought some 3800 kv motors so I can get about 41800 rpm. Right now putting some HIR's through I'm getting about 30 feet (I don't have a chronograph yet), and about 20 feet with darts (motor spacing is for HIR's with 11mm of compression).
In terms of motor spin up time, my motors spin up to full speed as fast as I can twist the potentiometer on the servo tester. I assume less than a second. Keeping the flywheels at low rev all the time might only help very slightly.
I am using a 25c battery because the ESC's are rated to 30 amps. I guess I could use a 30c because the ESC's can handle 40 amp bursts but I thought I'd play it safe. Here is a link.
Please include link to product.
Without removing the thermistors, your best bet are probably trustfires which aren't that great (they aren't really meant for this application and will be overdrawn in terms of current). You could use IMR's, but those might trip the thermistors. It's not really good to just change the batteries without removing some of the safety components in the circuit.
I think the electronics needed to use the esc to create a select fire method requires a bit more in depth wiring and a total controller like a arduino
The only benefits I see ESC's having to nerf is the possible use of electronic braking and possibly making it so that the motors are always spinning at a low rpm to reduce flywheel spin up times.
Yes shand, and in fact it would be amazing if you could program esc's to rotate X times, you get set up burst fire single fire and full auto.
I'm not sure if they could be programmed to that degree, but with a brushless motor on your pusher mech you might be able to simplify the wiring slightly.
Thanks for sharing! What is the advantage of braking within the context of flywheel Nerf blasters?
Electronic braking on flywheel blasters stops the flywheels as soon as you let go of the rev switch. People tend to like it because it quiets the blaster down instantly after the rev trigger is depressed.
After taking the advice of the community in my previous topic (link for those who want to see), I ordered a pair of brushless motors the equivalent in speed to a stock Nerf blaster. Here are my findings.
1. Brushless motors are expensive
I probably bought some of the cheapest motors I could probably buy, however, if I was going to do this again, I would probably buy ones that are a little bit more powerful. The problem with brushless motors is that you cant just buy the motors and be done with it. You also need ESC's and a servo tester to run your setup. While My ESC's were already coded, you may even want to buy a programming card so you can add this like electronic braking if you want (more on that later).
2. Lipos or other rc batteries are a necessity
Brushless motors are meant to work off of Lipo batteries. The product description should tell you which one. That means, in order to use brushless motors, you must have a lipo battery and a charger at least (battery alarm recommended). You can use other battery chemistries, but you might have to figure out the power equivalent yourself.
3. ESC's are a cool Idea for nerf
Because ESC's are programmable you can have your motors do all sorts of things. Perhaps most useful to nerf is electronic braking. Forget complicated circuitry, with an ESC you have the ability to have electronic braking built right in.
4. Inrunner vs. Outrunner motors
There are two main types of brushless motors, Inrunner and Outrunner. Inrunner motors act similarly to regular brushed motors in that only the shaft spins. However these tend to overheat easier and need to have flywheels attached to work in Nerf blasters. Outrunner motors on the other hand act a little different to regular brushed motors. Instead, the outer bell of the motor turns while the inside stays stationary (the bottom of the motor mounts to whatever the motor is being placed on). These motors are great because they act as their own flywheels. On top of that, they have more torque because the outside is spinning and they run cooler. The motors I bought were outrunners.
Brushless motors require a lot of wiring. None of the wiring is that difficult, however there are a couple things you have to keep in mind. First, you may have to wire battery connectors. My ESC's came with leads to connect to my battery, but I had to wire the connectors themselves. On top of that, I had to wire the harness to split the battery so that both motors ran off the one battery, it was a lot more solodering and shrink wrap than your basic stryfe mod.
My brushless motors are very quiet. I don't know how much sound level increases as the power does, But my motors only change in pitch when they are "revved" up.
Overall I think brushless motors are for those who really want to go all out in a flywheel mod. They are especially helpful for rivals rounds so that is where they might shine, but they only other reason you would need such torque was if your flywheels were metal (assuming you're going to use an inrunner motor). While Brushless motors may have the option of electronic braking, they will also require massive shell modification. Perhaps they are most useful in flywheel homemades like the one I am building. I don't really want to put down how to wire them up, but if enough people are interested, I guess I could try my best.
Here is my setup.
Hey i was looking at buying these motors. Any opinions? https://www.professo...K30306&CartID=1
I use that site to buy shark nsr 40's. It looks to be the right size and shape. I've actually been wanting someone like coop who get's revenue for their videos to try out these just to see what happens. It would be great to see a graph showing the effect of rpm on fps. It would probably be curved because of dart slippage. I'm wondering if there is a point where more rpm doesn't create a higher fps.
Disadvantages of this mod: not the most efficient (electrically speaking), requires soldering skills and necessitates the user to acquire a rechargeable batter pack (LiPo, Li-Ion, NiCd or NiMH).
It should work fine for that but not a Li-po. Don't think I don't like you mod, one of my first mods was a much messier version of this. It is great for modders who have a basic understanding of soldering and batteries. However, I just didn't want someone reading this putting a LiPo in their blaster and wondering why it stops working.
There are a lot of questions about how to do an electrical or battery modification to a flywheel blaster, such as the Rapidstrike. This brief write up will explain one way to use a rechargeable battery pack without modifying the major portions of the blaster. All that's modified is the Rapidstrike's battery tray.
Advantages of this mod: very easy to do, assuming you have soldering and R/C experience, yet will give a substantial increase in performance (ROF and FPS). You do not need to open the blaster itself.
Disadvantages of this mod: not the most efficient (electrically speaking), requires soldering skills and necessitates the user to acquire a rechargeable batter pack (LiPo, Li-Ion, NiCd or NiMH).
The following pictures show a side-by-side 6 cell battery pack using 2,000mah Eneloop AA batteries and a Deans Micro Connector.
This is such a simple mod and I know many of you have either seen it or done it yourself. However, for some of the newbies out there, these pictures should hopefully explain the basic idea of one type of battery mod.
The pictures explain it all:
This is great for people who don't want to open the blaster. However, if you don't remove the thermistors, the blaster will shut down due to the power going through.
Ok its 2016 so I don't know how many people are looking at this. Why a cork, iv done this do my retaliator but really different. I had a spare vulcan cocking knob so I attach the handle to the slide its self with a screw, their is some shaving with the plastic but in the end it works really well.
I'm sure this will really help him. Too bad that was two and a half years ago!
NO BACKSEAT MODERATION. USE THE REPORT FEATURE.
Ok, but the only problem is that I don't know where to get the wire for rewiring my Demolisher. I also have not attempted anything like that so if you can tell me where I can find a tutorial on how to rewire and remove locks like the thermoresister that would be great since I don't want to end up blowing my self up when I severe the wrong wire.
With a quick search of the internet you can find wire. Just match the specs to the output of your battery. I usually use 18 gauge wire, but that may be overkill for your mod. In terms of rewiring the demolisher is basically a re-shelled stryfe. Here is Coop's tutorial on rewiring a stryfe. It is pretty comprehensive. Don't worry your blaster will definitely not blow up.
As an RC enthusiast I can say that many of the motors you are looking have an RPM far too low to be useful in Nerf applications. Motors which are higher rpm require higher amperage rated electronic speed controls which can get expensive. You need to consider whether using brushless motors is reasonable or useful. I expect that a decent rivals brushless conversion could not be done for under 150$ including the price of the Zeus.
The brushless motors I'm going to use reach 210,000 rpm on a 3s lipo so I don't think that will be an issue. My blaster is homemade so with $60 in my motor setup plus 3d printing two springs, two switches, and screws I bet I could manufacture and sell this for $100-110 with reasonable profit if people wanted to buy (Please don't ask until I post something in the trading forum).
Jwasko, brushless motors use AC not DC power. you wouldt want to mess with any wires going from the motor to the speedcontrol. watch the video in post #20 in this thread to learn more on brushless motors.
id tie the rev switch into the white wire going from the controller to tester in that video.
and ya, a total on/off switch between the battery and controller would be a nice safety function.
That's exactly what I was thinking. A rev switch between the esc and servo tester, and a on/off switch between the battery on esc's (for safety and to save battery life).
I'm with this guy! A servo controller is all you would need, considering you use the same size/brand of motor/ESC.
As far as not interrupting power to ESC while not wanting motors revved up, I'd say find a good speed with the servo controller then place the rev switch on the red wire coming off the ESC (The power source for the servo tester) And if that won't work maybe place the rev switch on the black or white wires so the servo tester stays on, but you interrupt it's communication to the ESC...
Thanks. That's what I think I'll do.
Quack, that motor and speedcontrol are made by Suppo. just being sold under a different name. you find that ALOT in low cost rc stuff.
i been selling those for like 8 years in the shop i work at. 1 thing ill say, you get what you pay for with them. i tell most people if they will be replacing them within a year. most end up doing so, with more of the same. some people just love low cost.
i dont see any reason to not get those for testing.
things to know wiring wise. you will need to disable the BEC in 1 speedcontrol, wire the battery pack to the 2 speedcontrols, then use a servo Y harness from the speedcontrols to the Servo Tester.
here is a video showing how to wire that. do note, you will want one to spin left and one right.
I watched that video while trying to figure out my setup. It's great for anyone new to this sort of thing who wants to learn. Thanks for the advice on the motors and esc's. I'll keep that in mind. One last question. Do I have to get a programming card for my esc's? I'm going to order all the parts and post the results in this thread. Hopefully I can find a solution.
I'd also be concerned about the internal structure of these things. Flywheels can endure a lot of stress, and plastic isn't actually all that strong - NERF doesn't make flywheels out of ABS and instead uses Derlin IIRC. I'd hate for them to blow up on you.
A better use of 3d printing is to print the housing for the flywheels, motors, mag, etc; while using milled (or otherwise manufactured) wheels.
ED: This could easily go in Homemades; that you are home-making a blaster for RIVALs rounds hardly matters.
I wanted to make this blaster consist of as many 3d printed parts as possible so I could control the manufacturing process. I see your point, but I know derlin let alone custom flywheels will be expensive. I knew this might fit in in the homemades, but I thought more of the flywheel guys would hang around here.
by using the outer bell as the flywheels (not sure how good the metal will work, maybe coat it with rubber) you save space.
next, do to the higher torque you will get less rpm drop after each shot.
also, outrunners run cooler then inrunners. so less heat.
How about these. They are outrunners getting the same Kv as the other motors, they come with the esc, they can work off a 3s, and they're cheaper. I'm just worried about quality. I might test them out.
What do you mean here? Are you trying to avoid full stop to full review each time you pull the rev trigger?
Exactly. I want maintain a rev trigger without having the esc's boot every time I press it. I Know if I place the rev trigger switch on one of the battery leads this will happen. Can I put the switch on the positive lead from the esc's.
I have it running on 4 AA rechargeable batts which seems to be fine, but if I loan the gun out I will take one of them out so their is just 3 batts. You know how those noobs are, they just always have to hold the rev trigger down all the time. Will using IRMs have a snappy start to the motors. If so were can I find them. I can find tustfires on Amazon but IRMs are different, right.
Yes IMR's are different. They provide more current than trustfires and they won't be as strained due to pull of current from the motors. However, I'm pretty sure they typically have a lower mAh. Here are some.
You do realize that's still brushless, right? That's cool, just make sure you know how to use it (I don't).
I realize they are brushless and I have been doing some research into how it works. The only problem besides the need for esc's is the need for the esc's to connect to a receiver. Does anyone know a way where I can just control throttle through a switch? Or does anyone know of brushed motors with similar specs. Brushless motors might just not be feasible.