Shmmee, have you tried a brithop-type configuration with cpvc to see if that will make the darts feed through hoppers? I would think that that possibly coupled with Taerkitty's SlantHopper could get these to feed reliably in a hopper. My hopper is currently set up like this and it has almost never mis feeds, even with 2'' slugs.

My wye is actually a homemade. I took a coupler, miter cut one end at a 45, and plastic welded it to the back of a 45 elbow. I then dremmeled out two holes for air to pass through - leaving a guide post in the center. Instead of reaming out the cpvc and pvc it's nested into - I extended the cpvc beyond the pvc, reamed it to a knife edge, then heated and flared it out till it was touching the walls of the wye. In doing so - it does sit farther in than had I simply reamed the pvc, and cpvc. Perhaps the dart is impinging upon the flared cpvc before the tail has passed the bend.

It's performed well with slugs, and pom-pom tipped darts. I recently realized that my valve at the top of the feeder tube is not air tight. That could explain why the occasional dart would stop mid barrel. However the leaky valve wouldn't explain why the first shot is needed to prime the dart, and the second shot fires it (sometimes).

At the next available opportunity, I'll ream the cpvc and pvc to a more standard set up, and replace the feeder tube valve with a simple cap and see if those changes affect performance.

Interesting approach shmmee. Unfortunately, it can be hard to know when this is applicable. I'll offer a more significant problem with using light darts than what has been mentioned. Optimal barrel length is a function of dart mass to a certain extent based on my experience and my computer simulations. I've noted before that when the darts are heavy enough the ideal barrel length is independent of dart mass (as long as this criteria is met, at least). But when the darts are extremely light, it's likely that the pressure in the barrel is going to be different than the pressure in the gas chamber or spring chamber, and this means that your optimal barrel length will likely be significantly different from what it would be if you used "heavy" darts. Is is that bad? I guess it depends, and testing would be the easiest way to see if it is bad.

All the rambling about friction also applies, but based on my simulations, it's not as significant as people think it is. And it's certainly not as significant as the effects from using a low mass dart.

To me, the easiest thing is to have a few barrels of different lengths and a chronometer. I don't really know what anyone's trying to avoid here as barely anyone has even bothered to use a chronometer. It seems to be common knowledge that this sort of testing is bad, but it's not that bad. People seem to spend a lot more time trying to figure out how to avoid using a chrono than it would take to use a chrono. I've done tests like this and it's not that hard or even that annoying. I spent perhaps an hour or two to measure 75ish shots.

I completely agree that a chronometer would serve as the ideal method, I've priced them before and have decided they are beyond my nerfing budget (though I do have a bone stock cross bow I'd be willing to trade for a decent chrono - if any one is interested Yeah, scratch that offer. 3 hours sleep can make you say stupid things). I was just trying to come up with a simple - low budget method for the many who are in the same boat as me.

I might look into the theory some day later, but I'm worried that it might end up being as much of a boondoggle as the rifled barrel discussion (which I foolishly let myself get sucked into). Had I the time of an uncommitted teenager, I would be more than happy to examine this concept at length, but screw that. I've got kids. I feel lucky to have an undisturbed 3 hours to mod, and defending this concept lays so far at the bottom of my list of nerfing priorities, it's picking pre-chewed gum off of it's face. Thanks for the input everyone,

Doom - as usual - you rock.

Ok, I'll trust you guys on it. I failed to take into account different darts. I guess it was one of those things that sounded simple and perfect in my head. Sorry about accidentally posting a concept instead of something more proven.

In an attempt to salvage this into something bennificial, is there any easier method than taking muzzle velocities, or measuring ranges (both of which would require many, many test shots) when establishing a barrel length?

I'm not taking pictures of this write up, because if you're so dense that you need a picture of a dart stuck in a barrel to grasp this concept, you should be playing with playschool toys, instead of hasbro.

I've been thinking about simple ways to establish a proper barrel length, and after trying to use a big salvo to fire a steffan out of 1' of pteg, (dart didn't leave the barrel) this thought kinda walked up and slapped me.

Start with a long barrel - too long for the dart to leave the barrel, and fire an unweighted fbr blank. Because the steffan is unweighted, it will have little mass, and very little momentum. It will also stop suddenly as soon as it begins to pull a vacuum. Pull off the barrel, use a rod to measure how far the dart made it down the barrel. Repeat to find the minimum length traveled.

I haven't done any testing to see where the best barrel length is in relation to where the fbr blank stops, but I would guess it wouldn't be more than 1" behind the minimum length traveled.

Approaching it from this method should spare you walking down ranges, or measuring muzzle velocity.

Recapping:

Wow that was an awesome war! Throwing the dates and times up on nerfhaven really helped. We had 4 new serious modders join us!

Pros-

13 attended. While it wasn't the most attended war we've had, it was certainly of the highest caliber of individuals. It was exactly the direction I've wanted the SLC nerf scene to go. I usually have to bring my entire arsenal as loaners, but this time every one had their own blasters -they were modded too! I still loaned out a couple, but they were to people who were informed enough to recognize a classic blaster when they saw one. The only ones relying on my blasters - was me! Very sweet. Still buzzing about that!

New modders! I'll keep announcing them here, and across the nic looking for more lost souls in SLC.

Perfect weather.

The parking lot being repaved ensured no baseball games were scheduled, and we were able to use the field - following a massive hosting error on my part.

New permutation to the dork vest game. It's now a single round, fast paced, team switching game that is ends in an Effeminate one vs everyone bout of glory.

Getting a semi-standard established for steffans.

Cons-

The nicely wooded section of the park I had scouted via google maps was in fact a heavily flooded natural preserve with several inches of standing water and 1' high reeds. Luckily we were able to re-locate else where in the park, and everyone was able to find us.

Staying up till 3 am, working on a mod that I wasn't able to use for the war, then getting up with the kids 4 hours later.


*because so very many of those who attended are waiting for validations - I'm setting up a "doodle poll" to pick the date for Junes' war. If you are close enough to attend (and only if you are able/willing to attend!) click the link, and check off any dates you are able to attend. Then e-mail me letting me know you're interested so I can put you on my e-mailing list! I promise the e-mail address on my profile is my own, and I'm not too much of a weirdo. Please, please please participate and vote. It makes me feel happy to know I'm not the only one working on these things. You do not need to have an account with doodle.com, but even if you did, IT'S FREE! so you really have no excuse not too participate!

doodle poll

We should probably form ourselves into a "clan". E-mail me with any thoughts for a clan name. Kinda looking for something not intense or threatening, maybe something slightly humorous. We should also pick a regular park to meet at. Many of our modders are now from the east side of the valley, so we might as well pick a park over there somewhere. I'd like one that's not normally dedicated to an organized sport (ie soccer field...). We got lucky with the base ball field being un-used, but that definitely wouldn't be the norm. Trees and cover is a plus, it would also help if it was an obscure park that doesn't see much regular use, or isn't visible from an entire neighborhood. We tend to get swarmed with 8 year olds' when we play at a highly visible park. Not a good thing when steffans are in use.

Edit: Wut. My felt tore, leaving a thin layer of fibers on the dart base. I stuck it back on. If I put felt on both sides and rip it off one, I can then glue it on the torn side. The intact side acts as the tip padding, as there's no leverage to make it tear.

That's awesome! It's great to see more people experimenting with this concept! Could you post a pic of your padded tips?

Of a curiosity, do you have any idea how thick your felt is? It seems to me that the higher ration of corn starch, the stronger the felt bond, the more resistant to tearing off, but the harder the head is. The felt I've used is propapbly the thinnest cheapest felt available. (craft store) It's just pure speculation, but because there is less material between the two bonds (head/felt bond and FBR/felt bond) they may bond to more common fibers, and result in less propensity to separate. Heads separating from the felt is new news to and I'm certainly not saying it isn't possible, but if it was filming up before you could finish getting the felt on, that might explain the failed bond.

While I still haven't been able to do any measured range testing, I did have a chance to do some serious war testing. Of all the darts I was able to find after the war, not a single one showed even beginning signs of failure. Some were glued to the fbr with hot glue, some with goop. The hot glue ones were much faster to build, but that's just because of the quick set time of hot glue.

They did hurt less than hot glue domes, and it was agreed that gumdrop heads would be an acceptable dart head material for future wars. (We eventually agreed to get away from domes, due to the ouch factor.) Hopper tests (with out any felt on the tip) was a substantial failure. It would only fire every other shot- the first shot serving to prime the dart into position. That's a problem that will need to be corrected if these are going to receive any widespread acceptance. My barrel fit/length may of been a little off as well. I forgot to shorten it due to volume loss added by the hopper.

I spent most of the wars shooting them out of my barrel replaced (just a basic insert done - for now! hee, hee, hee.) big salvo. Wow, I love that gun. My last batch could stand to be a little heavier - based on flight characteristics displayed, and as previously discussed - could use a larger surface area to absorb impact. The salvo and I (with gumdrop head darts) did well over all, getting more than our share of hits during the war. The slc nerf scene is definitely picking up!


Keep up the experimenting. I really do like to see pics of this concept, as well as successes and especially failures being documented.

Based off a 10.1 oz tube of GE II weighing 0.8417 lb, a 3/8" diameter, 1/4" deep head would be 1.544g.

Just to avoid frustrations, Ge II silicone is listed on the oogoo instructables thread as one of the silicons that won't cure faster with the addition of corn starch. It's one of the caulks that cures by releasing moisture instead of absorbing it.

The weight calculation should be pretty close by volume between brands. Thanks for figuring that out.

To those well versed in steffan weights - would 1.544g be too heavy, too light, or just about right? I haven't started drilling on the next form yet, so it would probably be good to know if I should carry on as planned.

It was about 10:1 silicone to cornstarch. I have yet to actually test the density of caulking silicone, but all of the web resources say that most silicone rubbers have a density between 0.9 and 1.2g/cm^3. With an estimated density of 1.0g/cm^3 and an estimated tip diameter of 1.0cm, you should be using molds that are about 10~11mm deep to meet the current specifications for slugs and APOC standards. So how deep are your molds? I expect something like 1/2" or so, correct? If you drop a felt disc at the bottom and use another on top, they should be perfect. Except for, you know, being 1/2 an inch longer than your other darts.

Actually my most recent darts are about 3/8" deep + felt. My next generation (clylinders) will be 1/4" deep, but hopefully a little wider (a full 3/8" wide) to increase surface area. I don't think I've done any that come close to a full 1/2" deep. How have they worked for you? I don't know if you've had a chance to try the felt backing yet, but have you had any trouble keeping them glued on?

I'll try your 10:1 ratio of corn starch with a felt tip on my next batch. (As soon as I get the next form set up.)

You are using too much cornstarch, if that is the case. Mine were substantially heavier than yours, fired from a plugged 2K at pointblank range, and were definitely not as painful as hotglue domes. Use less cornstarch and they will be softer. The cure time may increase a little, but to be honest, why wouldn't you just leave them over night?

Very nice! Do you know what ratio of corn starch to silicone you were using? Adding mineral spirits does soften them substantially, but reduces the inseparable bond to a mere great bond. They still took quite a bit of pulling to separate the head from the felt, but they were able to separate none the less. The bond is still far stronger than gluing oogoo directly to fbr, so it should still be adequate for a war, but it could be easier to skip the mineral spirits and reduce the corn starch. Reducing the amount of corn starch might decrease firmness without compromising bond strength.

I did some hopper testing yesterday. Roughly 1 shot out of 6 failed to fire on the first shot. I would definitely count that as unacceptable. For them to work reliably with hoppers we'll need to investigate a way to add felt to the tip to reduce friction. I'll add that to my pro/con list. I received a 1/4" thick cutting board yesterday. I'm going to just drill straight through and bolt a backer board then try some cylindrical heads. I need to get a punch set first though, so I can punch some felt discs, and drop them in the bottom of the forms.

It seems like they are a lot more time consuming to make, and you say the impact force is similar to that of a hot glue dome. I guess my question is, what is the major benefit of these dart heads over other contemporary dart smithing methods? I'm not being sarcastic or snide here. People seem genuinely excited about this, and I'm just wondering what this new method offers in terms of improvements.

That's a fair enough question. I really would be shocked if any new unproven technology is greeted arms wide open without scrutiny.

Pros:
-No Mcmaster order (or shipping costs). All materials are waiting for purchase at your local hardware store, and craft store (felt)
-No metal weight of any kind. when a slug head separates mid flight, you have a projectile that's half felt pad, half metal washer with the potential to cut someone.
-Consistency - as long as your form is consistent, and your fill is complete, each head is identical in size, shape, and weight.
-Durability - Felt is a more porous bonding surface than metal, and is more likely to withstand abuse.
-Range - I've seen a 25' increase in previous batches compared to slugs. (I do realize there slugs are often required because of their limited range to improve game play)
- Accuracy - this has yet to be verified, but it seems logical that a heavier dart head would fly in a straighter line.
-Repeatability - Even a new dart maker with a form can produce consistent results equal to a seasoned dart smith.(which increases the overall safety and quality of darts on the field.)
-Customization- Add oil based dyes during mixture, couple with the dozens of different colors of felt, and make darts that are recognizably your own.

Cons: (yes, for the benefit and perpetuation of this discussion I'm also listing problems that I've seen. That way we might get more suggestions in, and either accept the limitations, or fix them.)
-A form is required Sure, you can make one yourself, but that's time that could be spent doing something else.
-More time and effort compared to slugs. 'Nuff said there.
-Currently lacking padding on the tips.
-Their isn't a glue on the planet that bonds extremely well with the silicone. (Trust me, I've tried close to a dozen!)Adding the felt backing was a last ditch effort to give us some way to glue finished heads onto dart blanks. Any glue bonds to felt! (The oogoo instructables website claims that fresh oogoo will bond to cured oogoo. Since oogoo bonds to felt and porous fabrics, we may be able to use oogoo to glue felt padded discs on after they've cured.
- Hurts like a hot glue dome. This needs further development, but isn't integral to the basic performance of the darts.
Increased range - this is included in both lists, because not everyone will view bigger ranges as a good thing.
- Poor hopper performance - Roughly 1 shot of 6 failed to fire on the first shot. That's a big issue. We'll need to pad the tips some how, even if only to reduce friction.

Sorry Just some Bob, Had my wife shoot me from 10' away with my pas (with added ls spring, 12" straight barrel, no hopper.) and one of the lighter pointy tipped darts. I definitely knew when I got hit. Though that was close range and a high powered blaster. I'm sure a slug would of also hurt under those circumstances. At the very least it was nothing like getting hit with a stock dart shot from a near stock blaster. The outcome might be different with a lower powered blaster, or normal ranges.

Anyone who shoots someone else from that close with any homemade dart and mid/high powered blster is going to leave the victim with a welt, and probably be labeled a douch. I just have high standards for these things, and think the pain factor can be reduced by the addition of padding. The increased surface area of the flat head darts may also help substantially. I just haven't made any of those in the felt backed edition.

Mother F RIGHT! Nice work Mr. Schmii.

Now, on to the questions: Do these heads cause friction or ‘sticking’ in a hopper clip or a Wye like the head of a streamline will? Or will they slide smooth like the felt head of a slug dart?

Previous versions (without the felt binding) had serious adhesion issues, and have come off while rounding the bend - jamming up mid barrel. These with the felt backing are much stronger! I'll hopper test them tonight. My hopper is a homemade one - a coupler welded to the back of a 45, and a pair of air holes through the 45. I left a center post in the middle of the wye to help guide darts around the bend (like a britt hopper), so it may not be an accurate performance baseline of a standard Wye. They don't have the stems that impair streamlines, so I expect they'll work well.

Presenting: Gumdrop dart heads!


A homemade, consistent, metal free, mass producible dart head made from materials readily available at almost any hardware and craft store!
It uses a home made mix called "oogoo" as the main dart head material (silicone caulk + corn starch to shorten cure time). http://www.instructa...gru-Substitute/ Read it, it's great.

With recent advances made, I feel confident enough to present this as a completed and functional product. The bond of the head to the felt backing is nigh inseparable! I pulled with my fingers, and gave up. I pulled with pliers, and the head tore in half before separating from the felt!

Credits: Thanks to Darth Maker for the discovery of oogoo, Taerkitty for thinking up the felt backing, and Just some Bob for coming up with the gumdrop name. Also thanks to those who helped with other ideas, and encouragements while this concept was being developed. This has truly been a group effort, without the nerfing community (special thanks to Nerfrevolution.com, where this was developed), it would never of gotten off the ground.

The format of this write up will be a written format, supported with video of the process. That way everyone can see just how incredibly easy these things are to make.

Materials:
For pointy heads - a polyethylene (white plastic) cutting board of any thickness greater than 1/4".
For flat heads - 3/8 - 1/4" white plastic cutting board (2)

counter sink: "four cutter cutting bit" ((It's a counter sink with an adsustable center bit - sold at any hardware store)#10, or #12- though #12 heads have been known to jam a hopper - but that could of been a pre-felt separation issue. I'll have to re-visit #12's the increased surface area might help decrease pain.)

3M window and door silicone caulk (or any other clear silicone caulk with a ton of warning labels on the back. NOT GE II silicone. It cures by releasing moisture instead of absorbing it.) It should reek of vinegar while curing.
corn starch
Ziploc bags (to mix in) Gallon size for batches larger than 100 heads
square of felt large enough to cover your dart form.
Mineral spirits (optional - softens the final product)

Tools:
A work space you can temporarily stink up.
Drill press or drill with masking tape to mark a depth/ stop drilling ring
Wood paint stir sticks
scrap sacrificial board - opt. (to make a flat head form put it under your cutting board as you drill, any flat drillable material will work)
clamps/screws - opt. (helpful)
scissors
caulk gun
3/4" (or larger) scrap of PVC to use as a roller, longer scrap of cpvc to slide in and use as an axle.
Packing tape (or other) to tape your mixing bag to the table to hold it in place while you mix.
#10 (.375") or #12 (.425") "four cutter counter sink (For pointy head darts)(or a normal 3/8" or 7/16" drill bit - for less pointy heads) to drill your form with.
Uni-bit to pilot drill your form holes (for flat holes) (optional) They stay centered better, so you can space your holes closer together.

Materials Video: (click to open in new window and view. Not sure how to embed video. Feel free to PM me with pointers. Also, wow I hope I really don't sound like that. I sound like frekin' Kermit the frog.)


Form making basics

The majority of time spent on this project will be invested in making your form, but it's infinitely re-usable, so no big loss! Spend the necessary time to lay it out well, and do it up right.
Space your holes as close as you dare to drill if you plan on separating the heads with scissors, about 1/8" apart if you plan to separate them using a punch. Use the width of your counter sink as a guide. I laid the flat tip of mine on the edge of my board and traced around it with a permanent marker, then drew lines coming off of the point with a framing square. Try to line your holes up in straight lines so you have the option to cut them apart with scissors if needed. Off centering every other line will fit more dart heads on the mold, but it will add time to cutting them out. Leave at least a 1/2" border unrolled around the outside of your form.

To make a pointy head form: (Easiest, but not by much)

Set the depth of the internal shiny drill bit in the counter sink so it's barely poking above the black part of the bit (adjustable via hex screw). Chuck it up in your drill press / drill. Set your depth to 1/4" below the surface of the cutting board. (Less if you want shorter heads, more if you want taller heads). Drill out your heads. This plastic drills very easily and cleanly, but it did leave some scraps clinging around the center hole, so go back through and check to make sure their aren't any small pieces left behind.

To make a semi-flat head form:

Use some fine bolts (or even spare nerf gun screws) to join your cutting board to your sacrificial board. The sacrificial board will keep the edges on your exit holes clean and level.
Adjust the depth of the drill bit to to drill partially through your cutting board and into your sacrificial board. The size of the exit hole in the cutting board will be the diameter of the flat spot on your head. Your heads will be as tall as your cutting board is thick, so be picky when you buy your board.
Use a "four cutting" counter sink to drill your holes partially through your cutting board, and into your sacrificial board.

Credit for the backer board goes to Taerkitty and originally K9 for suggesting drilling through and using a backer board to take off the point.

To make a flat head board (cylinder):

Drill through your cutting board (1/4" to 3/8" thick board - board thickness defines head height) using a 3/8", or 7/16" bit (depending on how tight you want your tolerances, and how heavy you want them to be). Bolt another cutting board behind it.

To tip the cylinder heads in felt - prep felt discs by using a hollow punch and a hammer to pound through stacked layers of felt (I've gone through 6 at a time) separate the discs, and place one in the bottom of each hole. Gently separate the board from the backer (nothing holding the discs in place but friction), coat the back of the form in backing tape, re join the form and backer, then press the discs into the tape to hold them in place. (You'll have packing tape sandwiched between your form board, and backing board.)

(Currently developing similar method to tip them in dryer lint. - hopper feeding with out felt discs on the tips)

Mixing oogoo

Squeeze silicone caulk into a Ziploc bag (use a name brand bag with the double strips of seals. It's a wasteful mess if the bag opens while mixing.) 6 complete squeezes from the caulk gun makes 175 3/8" tall heads. If you want to add mineral spirits, to soften the final product, or oil based paints to change the color, add it and mix it in now. I don't have an exact ratio of mineral spirits figured out here. I just added and mixed till it didn't feel quite so thick. Tape your baggie down to a table, and mix it back and forth with the roller.

We haven't added the corn starch yet, so no rush. Make sure you have every thing you need for the rest of the process close at hand, and your form is secured some how to the table. If you're making flat head darts, screw or bolt your drilled head form onto an undrilled piece of cutting board. (That will keep oogoo from shooting out the back) Once you add the corn starch, the clock starts ticking!

Add 1/2 spoon full of corn starch for every 1 squeeze of silicone into your bag. Squeeze out the air, and tape your bag down to your table, make sure it is sealed, and mix it together with a roller. The corn starch shortens the cure time of the silicone from 24-48 hours down to 2-4 hours!

I thought I took video of the mixing, but it didn't take. It's pretty self explanatory, I'm sure you can figure out how to mix two or 3 ingredients in a plastic bag.

Filling the head form

Video (again, click to open in new window and view):


Written instructions:
Once mixed, roll every thing away from a corner, and lop off a large corner from the bag. Roll it back towards the corner, and squeeze the glob out onto the form.


Glob of Oogoo waiting to be pressed into the head forms. You can see the backer board clamped to the head form board in this pic it was just a small, trial sized board though. I would recommend bolting them together. (It should reek of vinegar. Open windows and such.)


Smear it into the divots with a paint stir stick, scrape off the excess.


Lay your felt over the board, and go over the top of it with a roller. Rub your thumb swiftly over the top of the felt. This will help work the uncured mixture into the fibers of the felt.
Allow to cure (should feel semi firm if poked). I have waited as little as 4 hours to remove them from the mold.
[I'll add a video of the dart heads coming out of the mold as soon as I can take it.]
Once cured Pull the felt off of the mold, and the heads will come with it! Separate the heads by either cutting them apart with a pair of scissors, or use a punch and hammer (harbor freight - $8)

Pointy (before we discovered felt backing):

And after we discovered felt backing:

Flat (before we discovered felt backing):

Cylindrical felt tipped heads:
[pic goes here once they're out of the mold]

Note: save your unused tube of caulk for later by cutting a corner off of a plastic bag, fill it with silicone, and hold it on with a rubber band.


Now glue the felt side to your fbr using your favorite glue and be done with them! [I'll update with a pic of some finished darts later]

Ranges: depend largely on the size of the dart produced. Previous (heavier versions) flat heads have out ranged my slugs by 25'. It's raining all week here in Utah, can't do range tests.

Pain: Hurts about as much as getting shot with a hot glue dome. Comparative pain tests say less than getting shot with a hot glue dome.

Hopper feeding: sucks.

We may want to work out some sort of padding/coating on the tip. The oogoo site says fresh oogoo will stick well to cured oogoo. We may want to make completely flat heads by drilling straight through, and use oogoo to glue on felt pads post curing. I can't think of a way do do it during the initial form up. If we sandwiched the form top and bottom with sheets of felt, we would be unable to remove the heads. Maybe dropping discs into the heads pre fill? See above edit entry: Flat heads (cylindrical)
- feel free to throw out some suggestions!


(see slugs domes and other dart heads thread for development http://www.nerfrevol...t=2443&start=60, as well as the original counter sink dart heads thread: http://www.nerfrevol...&p=30679#p30679

[edit: added form description - cylindrical heads]

soo guys are we any closer to setting a date? our FB poll's most popular date is the 9th, followed by the 23rd and the 2nd as a tie, but that's mostly the same guys who posted here. sooo Apollo, Axel, what date do we pick mentlegen?

FB poll? Isn't NerfHaven set up to do polls (a place all ready frequented by many hoping to attend) Do I need to search out the FB poll referenced to cast a vote against the 9th (obligatory family reunion), or are results from both considered?

I do of course realize that no date chosen will agree with everybody. If it does end up being the 9th, well have fun storming the castle!

Regardless, a date would be helpfull to get travel plans settled.

Oh - last year I stayed at "Glendora Inns and Suites" (along with a few other nerfer). He asked us about the toy guns, and I told him we were there for an annual convention. He seemed interested in the influx of business, and seemed interested in offering a discount to participants of this years event as an incentive to come back. - If we advertised his business online. I haven't spoken with him since last year, and who knows if he'll remember anyway. This years event is likely to be in a different zip code, but hey the rooms were nice, and so was the price so, just throwing the option out there.

Ok, Thanks. I dont know for sure if its in the tube or the bladder. When I pump it it usually just leaks out.
I'm not sure if its a normal problem or if its something that is just me. Thanks though! I'll try that first.

I would guess it to be the large barbed fitting that the bladder clamps over. That's a common place for them to leak after being opened. Submerge the bladder under water when you pump and look for bubbles. That will tell you where the leak is. (Or just try the zip tie first and see if that fixes it. It would probably take you longer to fill the sink than zip tie the fitting.)

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Hey, it's a last minute, but just thought I'd post the war we're planing on having this weekend.

Date: Sat, may 21
Time: 3 pm Start time is being changed from 3 pm to 1 pm!
Location: Big cottonwood park 4300 South 1300 East, Murray, Ut (this park is split in half by 4500 south. We'll be in the eastern wedge of the south eastern half. (parking lot only accessable off of murray holiday rd. (not 4500 south!)

The alternate location (in case we are asked to leave) will be the park directly south of there: Creekside park.

If we get rained out - [ still working on a contingency, sorry]

The rules:

I have a liablility waver i'd like signed by parents of minors, and participating adults. Kind of covering my butt type of thing. Pm me your e-mail address and i'de be happy to send it allong to you. Our code of conduct and game types rules will also be attached.

Eye protection is an absolute requirement.

No extra heavy darts- IE ball bearing weights.

Padding on the steffans would be appreciated - but not required. Since other steffan technologies are still in the works, I'll just keep it limited to that right now. We can standardize after some trial and error is done.

The Utah scene seems to have Nerfers (those thems that show up and borrow a blaster), and Modders (those thems that not only own their own blasters, but have taken the time to mod them themselves!). This war, because of the location change - should see fewer nerfers, but more modders! Should be a great time!

Thanks,

Shmmee

Is it leaking out of the over pressure valve in the back, or over the bladder fittings?

If it's leaking over the bladder fittings, try using a zip tie. Wrap it around the leaking connection twice (two loops - 720 degrees) before ziping it tight so it has doubble contact around the entire fitting. Duct tape probalby won't help.

martianshark from Nhq asked me to have you put him down as a probable attendee. He doesn't have an account on NH

-Your blaster must shoot standard "nerf" ammunition. This means any current acceptable homemade ammo or Nerf stock darts, etc. No death darts, paintballs, airsoft, or any of that bullshit. This shouldn't be hard.
-

Are discs now considered standard "nerf" ammunition? Laugh all you want, but I'm thinking of welcoming the vortex line by doing a homemade disc shooter.

Am I the only one who sees it's potential to hold a nerf sword?

Just to be clear - Is this a preparatory war to try out a potential Armageddon venue, or did Armageddon get kicked ahead a couple of months without any notice or discussion?

Yeah, it would be nice to not be nerfing in 100 degree heat, but it's going to be tough to get my crap together with such short notice, and so far to travel.

I added a raider handle and stock to my PAS. It's rock solid and very comfortable.





Precision cutting and pasting:



It still needs more putty, and a new paint job. I ripped the smdtb (spider man dart tag blaster) off of the shoulder last night, and hope to integrate it a little more cleanly by replacing the valve with a blast button, and hiding the pump - or a slightly better pump inside the collapsible stock (so compressing the stock pumps the smdtb). Once done the 3 blast barrels should sit flat on the side of the shell without the brick of tubing beneath it.

Firstly, Boot - you rock! Is there any chance of getting some of that footage posted, or possibly even re-shooting and comparing non ported and ported barrels? That kind of testing can really only be done effectively with a high speed camera.

Secondly, the initial (and objective) testing I've done with rifling (comparing a gentle 18:1 twist, a tight 9:1 twist and a smooth bore have been so obviously against rifling that I've had a tough time forcing my self to set up the "precision shooting through paper test" I promised everyone and gather hard data. The darts weighted with a #6 washer swam like a fishy when shot out of the rifled barrel. I shot a heavier silicone head dart, and that looked like it flew perfectly straight, but it almost torqued the head off after the second shot. It's possible I'm not using a heavy enough dart. I think I'm going to have to wait till my 3 rd generation silicone head darts are done before doing more testing. They'll have more surface area to bond with an may be able to handle the stresses better. They'll also be heavier than the #6 washer. I also added a ls spring to my pas, which allows me to add another 2 inches to the barrel (confirmed by comparative testing 10" to 12") So the fishtailing with the 10" rifled barrels may be caused by the increase in power and not the rifling. I could add ports to the tip, but I only want to change one variable at a time while testing.

Only problem with drilling ports in a barrel is deburring the inside.

I'm no gunsmith, but ports should be placed close to the tip of the barrel. I'd guess towards the last 1/2" to 1/4". Should be easy to clean out with a small knife, or hobby file. You are right though, there is definitely a right way and a wrong way to deburr drilled ports holes. My first instinct would be to grab a .5" drill bit. But if the drill bit expands the barrel ID enough for air to pass around the dart - you've defeated the purpose of the ports.

When I do test the rifled barrels vs smooth bore, I think I'll throw in a ported barrel as well - though I don't know what the "optimum" barrel length is for my PAS. (Using 10" of cpvc. Dart fit is certainly snug, but not "twist fit".) If I got lucky and nailed the perfect barrel length solely on guess work, porting won't display any effect. Maybe I'll have to test two additional short barrels (5" or so) ported, and unported to see if there is any difference. If porting can be proven to make a difference in a mid power blaster like my stock PAS, it should have an even greater effect on the high end ones like snaps.

Ooh! Porting a barrel may be an easy, effective way check your barrel length! Coat the ports very lightly with dish soap or other bubble blowing solution, and fire a dart. No bubbles, or bubble solution inside the tip barrel = too long of a barrel, you're drawing a vacuum before the dart leaves the barrel. If you get bubbles, that means there is excess pressure that could of been used to accelerate the dart. If it just sputters violently, it's too short. That's purely theoretical of course. I don't know if ports on a barrel can even blow bubbles. Perhaps a similar test can be done with a weak tape (painters tape), or glitter/chalk line dust. The chalk line dust may work better with only a single small port drilled.

And last, is it possible to use these with hole-less FBR (as in the standard stefan blanks) by making a hole in the blank?

I'd love to encourage the development and use of safer dart heads. These things look great! If you want to make a centered hole in fbr, may I suggest this link: center hole jig (I just barely broke it away from the thread where we've been developing other similar heads:Slugs and Domes (and other dart heads, including DIY ones)

I don't know how your silicone is any more friendly than the silicone I've been trying to work with (Jet brand), but when I tried using super glue to bond fbr to the silicone heads I made, the head fell off under it's own weight. Do you still get much of a bond even without a stem? I've tested several adhesives trying to find a suitable bond. (I've also tried: amazing goop, plumbers goop, shoe goo, hot glue, un-cured silicone, and multi-purpose cement.) The only thing I've found so far has been "liquid nails small projects silicone adhesive" (in the toothpaste tube - not the caulk gun tube) It held up to 10 - 12 shots from a BBBB into the concrete floor before separating.

Planning on making the pilgrimage from Utah again, possibly with +2 people. Still figuring out what will work for the other 2, but I'm liking June 25, and July 23.(my +1 likes June 23) I get every other Friday off, and I'll be able to avoid missing work, and using vacation days. July 9 is a family reunion, and the only weekend we can't come. If needed I can work with the other 2 options.

Are the pistol splat variations still acceptable?

I was browsing on Nrev, and found this. I'm pretty sure its what your looking for.

ah yes exactly, i was thinking of using some kind of caulk.

thanks

Thanks for taking interest. If you try them, make special note to read, and re-read the part that discusses what silicone caulks work, and which do not. (If it reeks like vinegar and has a bunch of warning labels - that's the stuff. GE II brand silicone will not work.)

They're still in the developmental phase. I need to expand the mold to do only blunt heads (heavier and easier to extract) and make up another batch. If you're interested, pm me your address, I'll send you some to experiment with- if you let me know how they work for you (comparative ranges, flight chararistics...) I think they fit exactly what you're looking for - no metal weights, and soft enough to actually bounce when dropped on a hard surface from a few inches (the silicone has more give than rubber, and far more give than hot glue.) and is easily mass producible. (making a mold is as easy as drilling a polyethylene cutting board with a counter sink at carefully repeated depths) Filling the mold is as simple as mixing caulk and corn starch and mooshing it into the holes.

It's about 3-4 hours to full cure, (depending on how much corn starch you add) and the ONLY glue I could find that bonds to silicone is "liquid nails small projects silicone adhesive" (blue and gold toothpaste type tube pictured in the post - not the liquid nails caulk tube; though I haven't tried the caulk tube...) which has a 6 hr set time, 16 hr full cure time. So you won't be able to fab up a bunch of darts the morning of a war and expect them to be set in time. If you find anything better - please for the love of Nerf let me know!!

Once I feel confidant enough in their performance to defend the concept, I'll post it here. Things have just been to crazy to do even the slightest bit of testing with them.

I finally had some time to play with the nut head you sent me. They flew very well, they hoppered (in my homemade hopper - a 45 welded with a coupler behind it) well, and I was able to screw a #6 nut on the threads (just for giggles, and as a testament to the high fidelity of your molding skills) I didn't have time to measure ranges, or really shoot them enough for a reliable data set, but I'd certainly trust taking them into war with me.

Has using a single BB (or anything else heavy) under the countersink bit been considered? I feel as if this may solve the "too light" problem, while maintaining the aerodynamics of the molded dome.

I would be hesitant to drop any metal weights into a head. I've gone through 7 different adhesives trying to glue heads to FBR...

(tested by shooting into concrete floor with a BBBB at full power)

Sugru (headed up while still un-cured in mold) - separated while being removed from mold,
Hot glue -separated instantly,
Shoe goo - separated instantly,
"multi purpose cement" - survived 3 shots,
100% silicone - survived 10 shots,
Silicone liquid nails - pending,
Plumbers goop - pending

So far the only one to do ok, was 100% silicone, but that had a 24 hr cure time. The point I'm trying to make is that silicone doesn't like to form secure bonds with anything. Even if a suitable glue was found, heads will still separate, possibly/probably releasing any weights included. One of the primary goals of this thread was to remove hazardous metal weights from the equation.

The heads in the pic are about 1/4" high. Of the 3 i tried to range test (with a leveled BBBB - looking for the absolute max distance) 1 separated 20' from the barrel (fail) and the other two... were never recovered. I spent an hour wandering the street with my head down... I heard the things whistle as they disappeared... They looked like they were going straight till I lost them, but darn if I know how far they went. I wish I had a scale so I could weigh them.

Simple and extremely effective, deffinately a Boot creation! Great work as always.

Based on the plunger diameter and such, It almost looks like an unshelled xbow!

That's really impressive. What's your professional/educational background? This deffinately isn't something the un-trained idiot could create.

Like boot i'd suggest a pnumatic air hose quick disconnect for the green part. (they're very common, and therefor cheap. Especially from harbor freight - if you have any locally) The female side has a check valve that closes when not plugged in. Though to keep the tank or pack pack side from from emptying when unplugged you'll need some sort of ball valve on the male side. I dont know any part numbers, but a threaded ball valve should from a local hardware store should work ok. (If you can figure out how to connect it to tubing) the ball valve/male connection might be better in the firefly side.

I would almost suggest adding the back pack tank as version 2.0, and just keeping it simple for now. You can always cut a hose and insert a tee later with the air hose quick disconnect. Get the thing running first. Don't over complicate in your initial build.

I favor a bladder vs a hard tank. True a MS bladder wouldn't fit inside the firefly shell, but a hard tank might not fit too well either. It would be easy enough to lop off the MS bladder shell portion and glue it externally under at the bottom of the firefly. (external integration). You'll be sacrificing a MS anyway for the valve. You might not get enough volume with a hard tank stored in the rear of the firefly shell. It would be wise to experiment with both without integrating anything or chopping any holes. It would also remove the regulator from the equation.

Good luck with it all.

Clippard has a distributor locally to me in slc. I'll see if the MAVO-3P is any cheaper through them. Maybe i'll only have to donate plasma instead of sell a kidney... (They seem to have distributors nearly every where.) At the least it will probably be next month before i have any fun money. 12$ shipping and 10$ handeling for a 8$ valve? Really?

If it is substantially cheaper I can order a second one for you Dyxlesic.

*spoilers*
When i said hybriding the 2 valves together, it is litterly what i am doing. It is like cheesys, using hornet parts and a firefly shell and turret for a semi automatic valve, but it has been re-worked in order to work with a backpressure tank/QEV like atomatrons as apposed to a at2k tank like in cheesys. this way, it is simplified, there is no need for a 3rd seal, and no need for another mechanism to pull the pin on the tank. I hope that makes sense

I've been working on the exact same thing with a DTG. Only I've been having sealing issues with the stock hornet trigger tube, so I'm going back to my homemade brass tube trigger valve which seals perfectly without doubbleing up on the o-rings and reducing friction. Or at leas i thought I was untill Nerkum posted a youtube link of the clipard valve integrated into a magstrike operating a big salvo tank. nerkums cliffard valve He presented it on page 2 of Buffdaddys semi-auto salvo thread page 2 of Buffdaddys Semiauto Salvo. Now i'm just annoyed my nerfing budget is spent. This may be a good time for both of us to listen to Doom.

So i found out the problem: the holes in the orange pieces are slightly crooked. how should i straighten them?

I'd suggest expanding the holes slightly more than the rod so they have a little bit of wiggle. From there remove the o-rings, and get a brass tube that matches the diameter of the orange plastic parts. Chop off a piece of tube, and split it length wise into two halves. De-burr, goop or epoxy putty the orange pieces onto the rod, then splint them with the brass tube halves to make sure they cure straight. Just don't glue the brass tube to the orange piece.

I have a talent for over complicating things. That may be more work than is needed, guess that would be the OCD way of making sure they are straight.

For lube, i like the grease sold in the little canisters (about as big as a 50 cent piece, and about 1/2" high) in the faucet guts section of the hardware store, It's thick, and makes a more forgiving seal where thinner lubricants wouldn't. It's also marked non toxic, and safe for all o-rings. Though I haven't done any long term testing with it, so i don't know if it gums up after a year or two. That's about my only concern with it so far.

That's pretty smooth looking. Hope you don't mind if i have some questions:

Did you keep any of the bladder to level out the air pressure, or does the compressor have enoug volume to maintain the needed pressure?

Did you keep the valve trigger, or has it been replaced with an electronic switch to the compressor.?

Does it run on the same pressure as it did stock?

What kind of batteries and voltages are used?

How many clips can you fire from a full charge?

Sorry i'm at work and cant get to youtube through the firewall. I'd like to see some pics of the internals to see how it all fits together if it's at all possible.

May i suggest that you scale down the pictures a bit? Pictures needing a horizontal scroll bar are often met with mockery.

Now this I like, if rules would allow FBR tips (that are the same thickness as the felt in question) and other types of weights (as long as said weights were buried deep enough in hot glue completely inside the dart) I don't think anyone would have cause to complain; it would probably be cheaper than either full-glue domes OR slugs. Can we get a ruling on whether or not such darts will be allowed at Revolution and other such slug wars?

I'd like to add extra emphisis on deep enough with hot glue. The first steffans I ever tried to make had Fbr tips hot glued over a pair of pellet gun pellets (wad cutters, not bb's. My first mistake, don't repeat it.). The pellets shot through the hot glue and fbr tip and out the front, leaving a small dent in my oak cabnet. (good thing i was testing and not in a war type scenario). All 4 of that style did that on impact with a solid surface. I then went to washers. FBR over a washer wore quickly and became permantly compressed after hitting the wall a few times. Though, spherical BB's may act differently (with enough hot glue to keep them inside the steffan).

Any thoughts on Pom-pom tips over a washer? They're poofier and absorb impact very well when glued together with amazing goop (blue tube not black. it's a contact rubber cement) That's what I've made in the past,Though they are difficult to get full washer coverage. I am open to suggestions. I also don't have to order them online...

I would also like to echo HasreadCoC's question (from the 3rd page of the Ohio Revolution thread) as to the durability of different colors of felt discs from McMaster. (it was mentioned that the green and black felt doesn't unravel as quickly as white) Does anyone have experience to back this up? I have to wonder which dart would have more life, the dart that unravels, but is noticable and easy to recover, or the dart that holds together, but disappears the moment it touches grass.

Thanks TaerKitty for starting a new thread, I was watching the Ohio thread / dart discussion with interest but didn't feel it was appropriate to post because I wouldn't be attending. (Wow that sounds like an awesome war though!)

So, it that a true crossbow? (Such that power is provided by the arms, and not a spring?) 80 feet flat is really impressive concidering it's diminutiive size.

"Just try Ace, Lowes, Home Depot...." may or may not be helpfull. While searching for different brands of cpvc I was surprised to find that about half of the Lowes and Home Depot stores in my area carried cpvc, availability varied between individual stores (2 lowes carried cpvc (each a different brand) and 3 lowes stores didn't carry any), and some just ignorantly pointed me to their pex tubing with a confused look on their faces. Had i been unlucky enough to start my search with a store that lacked cpvc I probably would of given up on all local stores and resorted to the internet too.

I would suggest before looking on line, or even other modders, you make some phone calls to as many local hardware stores as are in your area. Once you've found one that carries cpvc, bring some of your fbr with to test in the store. Sizes vary slightly between production dates and brands.

Good luck