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There have been 318 items by azrael (Search limited from 05-September 93)
Almost no heat generated in the bushings. I can't feel any, TBH.
Current draw is a bit greater, haven't measured yet.
Range is at least 10 feet greater than before.
Mach Dash Pros are double axle motors, so you'll have to cut one side down. The RPM is higher, and I'd like to think torque is higher since it was designed to be a double axle motor haha.
I posted a video where you can see that my shots are pretty consistent, don't know if you saw it in my thread.
I tried the Tamiya Hyper Dash motors mentioned in another thread and the motors mentioned in this thread are significantly better for our Nerf use. The Tamiya motors seemed to have a higher RPM which would give a better first shot, but the follow up shots were absolute shit compared to these or even the stock motors.
Did you perhaps leave the thermistor in? That would make subsequent shots worse.
Any range measurements for these motors?
Yes, that's one chart I saw. It shows 4.93A for 5V there, but on another site, it said it was 4.5V. Motor specs are pretty hard to find on the internet haha.
Typically, LiPo batteries are more expensive than any other type, and require a more expensive and singularly useful charger than any other type. At least with NiMH batteries, you can use them in your television remote and wireless mouse. All he is saying is that he doesn't see the need for his purposes. For new people buying one type of battery to use in all of their blasters? Sure, LiPos make sense. If you already have Li-Ion batteries, like Trustfires, then use them. The information I found within the independent reviews of Trustfires on DX indicated that the over current protection would allow 4A draw through full discharge. That's probably fine.
You'll notice that I gave both.
I assume you mean voltages while measuring these currents. The stock Barricade measures 4.65v at the batteries with the switch off, drops to 4.0v and climbs back up to about 4.4v at full speed. The modded unit shows 4.75v with the switch off (I don't know about the discrepancy, that's weird), drops to 3.05v while accelerating, and comes back up to 4.25 while running full speed.
I suppose it is possible, but not in the milliseconds that it takes for my DMM to read. Also, is this the chart you are referring to?
Stall current happens pretty quick, I think. I know you measured peak current draw, but I don't know if a multimeter can display it quickly enough without averaging out the samples.
I just work out the rough math for stall current based on current charts and increasing voltage (typical Tamiya specs are at 2.4V).
The voltmeter I put into my gun is pretty crude, but with a battery measured at 4.2V out of circuit, it shows a I think 3.6V when rapid firing, and just 3.9V when just running or after one or two shots. If I press the acceleration button with no clip, it reads 4.1V still.
Just to give you my experience with the LiPo.
The Plasma Dashes don't sound any louder than an overvolted Rayven at 16V, I think. YMMV.
Those sound like Ponies. Also, ridiculous requirements. Maybe that's a little much?
Also current requirements are pretty typical, for more powered up motors.
That said, I think the Plasma Dashes actually run too hot, temperature wise, for use in an plastic enclosure like this haha.
The Mach Dashes I got seem much more manageable, and are pretty close to the Hyper Dash 2s in terms of power requirements.
How long do the motors take to spin up or recover on the Alkaline?
I am using standard alkaline AA batteries (Rayovac) rated at 1.5v, just do dispel whatever you are trying to cook up here.
Not trying to "cook up" anything here. I want an awesome gun as much as you guys haha. I just want consistent results to decide for myself. I'm hearing different ranges with essentially the same motors in a similar setup. There shouldn't be a 40 foot difference in the two sets of results. Just saying.
Just saw this post.
NiMH is capable of a little more current then alkalines but the biggest difference is that NiMH will have a longer charge life at the high amperage draw then the alkalines will.
You got 70-80ft ptg using what? Stock motors on stock voltage? Trustfires? Something else? I only got 60ft on stock motors and AAs.
The problem with the Tamiya Dash series of motors is that they're 3v motors. Any 3v motor will require twice as much amperage to do the same work as a 6v motor. The Dash motors are built for that kind of amperage of course but as you already know you'll have to use something other then AAs or Trustfires to supply that current.
70-80 feet using Tamiyas and a LiPo, like I said in the thread I have which you posted in before haha. Sorry for assuming it would still be fresh in your memory, that was my mistake.
I don't think the Stryfe can do 60 feet at stock. I didn't test mine with the stock setup for long, but that seems to be the average range of one overvolted to 12V, based on other tests I have seen conducted.
Are you actually measuring? Or just guessing? I thought mine was hitting 90, but upon measurement, it was more like 80 at peak distance, with high 60s and 70s on average.
Also, I brought up the current thing because based on the specs, like in the chart posted by Draconis, current draw is reaching a level that could potentially burn out the stock switches, even with your voltage setup. It's just a word of warning.
I'm pretty sure Alkalines do not have the same current capacity as a NiMH battery. High stall currents might not be able to be done by standard AAs, thus, recovery time increases.
Sorry bud but NiMH eneloops ≠ trustfire LiFePO4 no way, no how.
I don't like your insinuation that I've been misleading. For the record the generic brand NiMH AAs I have work just as well. Alkalines will give the same dart distance but they run out of juice faster. I haven't tried lithium AAs yet but I'm sure they work as well or better then the NiMH.
As for 90ft ptg, I got what I got and found a decent motor in the process. Polulu.com had over 60 in stock when I made the OP and last I checked they had 5 in stock. That's plenty of folks that will be able to report their results. I'm sure someone will post a vid.
It's not that you were misleading, but more so that it wasn't clear. No need to take offense.
90 feet is just pretty high, I'm just looking forward to some proof. So far my Stryfe has got about 70' PTG, with a few hitting 80' maybe. If those motors are all that and a bag of chips, awesome.
I'm gonna try some Tamiya Mach Dashes in a few days.
You're using Eneloop batteries, which come in the AA package. But the way you say AAs, you make it sound like you're using standard AAs - which you're not. Eneloops are pretty much like a Trustfire. Just NiMH instead of Lithium Ion. You're just not overvolting it since Eneloop is 1.2V, whereas a Trustfire that nerfers generally use are 3.7V.
I haven't measured, and I have no idea how long AAs would last during a nerf battle. I don't nerf battle at all. I'm too old for that stuff. For me this is nothing more then a fun novelty that I harass my wife and our cats with. For my purposes a set of 2000mah Eneloop AAs last a week. So they're not burning through batteries like fire through tissue paper or anything. How big of a deal is it to swap batteries between rounds?
Using a LiPo requires special chargers, special battery storage, modifying the battery compartment, carefully monitoring battery usage, etc. It will be fine for some people and there's definitely a battery performance advantage to those who go that route. But AAs are simple, easy, common, cheap, familiar, etc. I suppose among this crowd trustfires are similar, especially if a person already has them on hand.
I really hope the trustfires work. If the trustfires can deliver the current for these motors and the extra speed doesn't push the darts past their aerodynamic stability I think 100ft+ ranges are possible.
In fact, Eneloops can discharge more current than a the common Trustfire, I'm pretty sure.
You make the argument for a special charger, but rechargable batteries like Eneloop and Trustfires need one too. Granted, the a LiPi station is more expensive. I had LiPos lying around, and I have access to a charger. I never tried Trustfires because I didn't want to buy a new setup.
Another very important thing to remember that you guys are not taking into account is stall current.
You guys seem to be measuring continuous current draw, but motors need a lot of current to accelerate quickly in the beginning. That's why I decided to use a LiPo.
The Plasma Dash motor, for example, should have a stall current draw of around 10A. That's something a Trustfire will never be able to supply. And that's just one motor.
The Hyper Dash 2s I used should have around 4A stall current.
I just looked it up, these Solarbotics have a stall current of almost 5A at 4.5V. I expect the recovery time of these is a bit higher than stock motors.
I would like to see a video of 90' PTG ranges, the specs I was reading don't seem that crazy.
Also, I'm pretty sure the stock switches are only rated for about 2A, maybe 4A. Be careful with that stall current...
Draconis, I would also check the voltage when you're getting these voltages. See how much it drops when pulling a lot of current.
Range is actually closer to 60-70 feet, using elites and modified streamlines (chopped stem and covered hole on the tip).
Here's a pic of the spread.
unrelated, also I put a shotgun grip on my Recon ;D
Do a search for his threads, he used to sell them.
Do you think you could show us what the final product looks like? I know these are just files, but I'm sure you had to test them out and make them.
These look really cool, hope to use one soon.
What battery are you running it off of? You can't just run them off Trustfires. The Tamiyas have a large stall current draw, and a fairly large constant current draw - Trustfires can't supply enough current, that was the whole point of my mod haha. I'm only running it at 4.2V, off a Li-Po that can deliver 25A of continuous current, and even more in bursts. Also, they're supposed to be run off a max of 4.5V.
I just got finished installing the Hyper Dash motors into my Stryfe. I must say, I like the stock motors more. The RPM is significantly higher on a much lower voltage with the Hyper Dash motors, but they seem to lack torque to a point where it's annoying. Waiting in between shots for a second or two is just not worth the slightly higher range they were allowing. The motors seemed to nearly die every time a dart traveled through the fly wheels.
Although, temporarily running these motors on a higher voltage was pretty crazy. I thought my shell was going to fly apart during some of my tests.
I experience no wait in between shots. I'll try to take a video this weekend.
Really? With no modifications, on normal batteries, my Stryfe was well below talking volume.
Our stryfe and hailfire were both loud. Both look nice but i still like the air blasters and single shots. They've been shot plenty
Using Dynamat or something cheaper would definitely make it quieter.
I thought the stock Stryfe was very quiet. I have a dog, and any of my nerf guns scare him (not that I shoot him, he just doesn't like them). He particularly hates the Strongarm for some reason. But it serves him right for chewing up my darts hahah.
Close minded or I have 3 kids that lose the attachments to never be found again . Flywheels scare my kids and pets . We have to remember these are designed for children and not targeted towards the modding community unfortunatley. I help them upgrade the internals but the attachments serve no purpose for outr usage other then cosmetic . I use them in an office /warehouse close quarters set up .
If I were to apply Dynamat to the innards to absorb vibrational noise, like I did with my modified one, I doubt the stock Stryfe would be noisy at all.
Personally, I like the N-strike clip system. I hope most of the new stuff will continue to use it. I just hope we will see a better design of the breech, I think it would not be difficult to redesign it to have a tighter air seal. I don't think it's too much to ask to have some metal innards, either. More specifically, stronger parts. This would allow the modding community to do more with stock parts, I think. I would love to see an automatic dart pusher like in the Stampede, but only if the gearing were metal.
I'd like to see more stocks, or at least ones that are slightly larger. It would be interesting to see them being sold separately.
Also, I hope to see more multi-shot guns like the Rough Cut, and more pump action stuff.
Actually, because the 25k RPM spec is taken at 2.4V, my motors should be running at around 40k RPM since I use 4.2V.
Would something like this work?
I understand that brushless motors are more efficient than standard ones, but what advantages would they have in a flywheel gun? More torque, therefore less downspin from firing?
Edit: I now realize that these are only 10k rpm, half the speed of the mod here. So I guess they wouldn't work? Or could torque make up for it? I really don't know much about flywheel guns.
I've had better experience with current handling too. Something with the capacitance in the MOSFET gate...
Either one could be used.
a BJT is a transistor. A relay can work too, that's a pretty good idea.
Good idea on the dynamat. I like that idea.
I was thinking the same thing about those switches the other day. What's a BJT? You could use a relay and there's probably one that will handle the current and fit in the gun easy enough. Looks like I'm gonna have to hit the local electronics geek-shop tomorrow for one. My AtomicMods motors are coming tomorrow and they too draw a lot of current. My hope is that the Eneloop AAs will deliver the current so I don't have to resort to exotic batteries. I've heard of Eneloops delivering 4A without too much voltage drop. Guess I'm gonna find out.
After that I guess I'm gonna have to see about redesigning these darts because I'll be satisfied that at 40krpm and 50g-cm of torque (both motors combined) I've come as far as is reasonable and a little beyond with modifying the gun. The darts still leave much to be desired.
We tried the Plasma Dashes, and got some Dynamat.
The Plasma Dashes draw too much current, and since our batteries can actually supply the current they need, the momentary switches in the acceleration trigger switch fry. I would guess they are only rated for 2A of continuous current, which is what the current draw of the Hyper Dash 2s just clocks under. According to my multimeter, they have a continuous current draw of 1.8A.
Plasma Dashes easily draw twice that, and their stall current is even greater than that.
Hah, totally forgot about checking the current rating for the switches. So that's the limiting factor.
The system can totally work, if you want to do a work around. You can either get higher rated switches, which are usually significantly bigger or the other idea we had. We were thinking about using the stock switches to actuate a BJT to do the switching. However, the BJT will still be dissipating a good amount of heat, so it will need to properly rated and heatsinked as well.
All in all, the Plasma Dashes run really hot, to the point where continuous fire is not too sustainable.
I ended up putting back in the Hyper Dash 2s, and infamous used some Torque Tuned Tamiyas we had lying around. The Torque tuned feature 14g per cm, compared to the Hyper Dash 2's 10g per cm, but have a lower RPM.
We are considering getting Mach Dashes, which have 20g per cm, and still have a high RPM. These have almost half the current draw of the Plasma Dashes, but a bit more than the Hyper Dash 2s.
I installed a voltmeter, which is hooked up the acceleration trigger, so I know how much of the battery is drained.
You can see the Dynamat lining. It does work, and it does help. My gun is quieter than before, all vibration has stopped. There is still noise of course, but it's only from the motors. Pretty cool.
I also redid all my wiring with teflon insulated wire.
It's worth noting that while the Dynamat helps in the Rayven infamous owns, since the flywheel enclosure isn't bolted, there's a lot more rattling than in a Stryfe.
surely you don't need much torque to toss a dart that only weighs 50 grams?
I don't think its possible to get enough torque out of a 130 size motor to keep the flywheel speed up while firing a dart. The best we can do is reduce the problem. If you listen carefully you can hear it even on my "high-torque" robotics motors. The moment the dart head contacts the flywheels the RPMs take a massive dump and have to spin back up after. It happens fast, and definitely faster then with the OE motors but its still audible.
Also, do the math. The flywheels are approximately 4" in circumference. Multiply (RPMs X 4")/12" and you get your theoretical dart speed. My darts shoot≈90ft ptg and leave the gun going 100fps (measured with a balistics chronograph.) That calculates to 300rpm. My motors are 25,000rpm. The problem is obvious. That tells me I don't even need 1000rpm free-running speed if I can get a motor strong enough to pass a dart without losing more then 50% of its speed. The only thing these high RPMs are doing is storing inertial energy in the flywheels, which does help but not enough. I suppose there's an argument to be made for adding mass to the flywheels as long as the post-shot re-spin-up isn't too slow.
Someone please be my hero and convert their blaster to larger diameter brushless motors. It would require major reconstructive surgery on the blaster but the results would be in a whole 'nother universe.
After a while crocigator
Can you explain your math? I'm not following where you derived that from... It definitely seems like an oversimplified model to follow.
One thing that your analysis doesn't explain is that dart speed remains pretty constant with rapid fire shots for me. If it was losing that much energy I would think it be apparent after a shot. I'm pretty sure these motors have plenty of torque for our purposes.
The Plasma Dash is rated for 25000 RPM, 29k without a load. Nothing insaaaaane, IMO.
Its low risk, sure. But at 40,000-60,000+ RPM that some of these racing motors spin at its definitely possible for someone to have an anomalous weak flywheel disintegrate at speed. Low risk but high penalty. It only takes a pair of safety glases to protect your eyes if you're bench-testing.
The Tamiya Dash series of motors run $15-$20 shipped. There's a very good $5 alternative that I'm going to post about in a few days. I'm also going to test some $40ea AtomicMods motors just for giggles. I'm currently trying to decide whether torque or speed is more important for our application. If it is speed then the Plasma Dash motor is probably as good as its going to get, but I'm leaning towards torque being more important and these boutique slot-car motor manufacturers don't publish very good performance data so its a little tricky selecting the right motor.
After a while crocodile.
EDIT: Just looked up the AtomicMods you mentioned, definitely take care with those!
What's a good amount of torque, in your opinion?
The Hyper Dash 2s in mine now have no trouble gripping and flinging darts, I believe they have 10 grams per cm.
The Plasma Dash has 20 grams per cm.
The Plasma Dash is probably the priciest one, it's not hard to get it for less than 11 dollars each if you look. I just used Google. Shipping was like 5 bucks altogether for 4 motors.
Right now at 19000 RPM, they're fine, not in any danger of exploding like that. Shouldn't be a problem at 25000, the same motors have been used to spin plastic propellers just fine. the diameter is also much smaller than a CD, and the edges of the flywheel are stronger since there's an outer lip.
That CD exploded because it's not meant to be run faster than 10000 RPM or something like, whatever 52x read speed is. Plus it's using what, a vacuum motor? It's gonna vibrate like hell, because it's not meant to be spinning a disk like that.
You've brought up a ridiculous comparison, I think.
Be careful your flywheels don't come apart at those high RPMs. Probably not too much to worry about while the blaster is assembled but when you have it apart on the work bench testing remember to wear eye protection just in case.
they snap on, I don't think there's much risk.
If you don't mind me asking, what are the specs on the single cell LiPo you ordered? I'd assume it would have to be ~4100mah to keep up with Plasma Dash motors.
I'm thinking people are melting darts because the flywheels aren't gripping them well, so the darts end up being rubbed the wheel several times before being pulled forward correctly.
The Plasti-dip is what works against this, making it more efficient, and this is why I haven't melted any darts.
As far as why it's quieter, I think it's the quality of the motors. They're probably more balanced.
I got this mostly because I thought this would pair well with my 35 dart drums. So I've fired them off a couple of times through.
I'll get current readings tomorrow maybe, tonight I'm getting silly drunk.
I don't think this is something everyone should do, as technically, what I did is dangerous. There are safer ways to do this, but I was lazy. I'll elaborate later in the post. As electrical engineers, we know what we're doing. mostly, haha.
This is not a tutorial, and this is not in depth. We did this rather on the fly, and will be doing the same process later this week with a Rayven.
What we used:
18 gauge wire, red and black
Plasti-dip spray paint
Hakko FX-888 soldering iron
lead free solder (harder to use, but the fact that it melts at higher temperatures is better for our purposes here)
Tamiya Hyper Dash motors
8.2V LiPo Battery and connectors
I wanted to mess around with an electronic blaster, as opposed to air powered and plunger type ones for a change. A friend of mine got the new Elite edition of the Rayven, so I picked up the Stryfe.
He happened to have some Tamiya Hyper Dash motors lying around from a quad copter project, so we decided on a whim to put them in:
Notice there are no caps on these motors, as on stock ones. They're not necessary, since there is no signal here. We don't care about their effect in a system like this. Just wanted to point that out.
I have read someone tried Tamiya motors in a Rayven before without success. To that guy, I say, "wat a nub". I remembered reading that he kept overvolting it to get the motors started, and even then it didn't work well.
That's not how to use Tamiya motors. They run at a maximum of 4.5V, but draw a lot more current. So that would be one Trustfire in this case - 3.7V. Not good enough - it can't supply nearly enough current. I'll explain my approach later.
Notice I also left the Thermistors out. Why? These motors run hot! Those thermistors will be doing their job too well. Plus we KNOW we're running at a safe voltage here, so there's no chance of burning them out.
Also, I use teflon insulated wire, in this pic, should be able to handle the higher current demands with no problem.
I remembered a cool trick Coop did to his flywheels on his Stryfe, namely painting them with Plasti-dip. Great idea! I just put one coat on, but will be adding more later.
About to reassemble here...
You'll notice I left the locks in. I ended up taking out the jam door electronic lock, but that's it.
To explain, leaving the locks in prevents many possible problems with the motors stalling or jamming - which is something we don't want to do. Motors draw a significantly greater amount of current when starting up or stalling.
Looks like I took this picture before I replaced the wiring...I only brought one color of Teflon insulated wire with me, so I replaced the red and black wires with 18 gauge wire appropriately colored, which will be safer to run all that current through them.
I popped out the orange wall thingies in the battery drawer:
and shaved off the blue divider, too:
Notice the connector. Yep, that's a lithium polymer battery connection. That's how I'll be powering this thing! Way more current supply on tap, way more efficient.
Here it is charging:
We are charging it so that both cells are the same voltage. Why? Because we are going to take it apart! this battery is an 8.2V cell. We need 4.2V.
So we're going to disconnect the cells, and put them in parallel for higher current supply.
This is the extremely dangerous part I referred to. We are charging them first so they are balanced, so we don't want any crazy voltage offset sparking when we do connect them. These discharge can a lot of current, so don't lick them or let them short circuit. YOU WILL DIE. srs bsns.
Here's a picture as we pull it apart:
Connected in series, see?
We're going to connect the positive terminals together, and the negative terminals together. This will give us 4.2V.
Now, I said there was a safer way...They do make one cell LiPos. We just didn't have any, and we didn't feel like ordering them.
I won't go over the exact process because it's not safe for the average nerfer to try. So I didn't want people duplicating it.
Everything back together:
We don't have actual measurements, but I would say around 80-90 feet.
Comparable to a overvolted Rayven, but here's the best part: at almost less than half the noise!
Hopefully get a video in this week, when we get our proper one cell LiPos in the mail....and our Tamiya Plasma Dashes! Even faster RPM woo!
I will also be installing Dynamat dampening material in it to see how much that helps.
So what did this accomplish?
Hopefully a different approach than just sticking Ultrafires in a blaster.
Put really nice motors in a blaster.
Quieter than overvolting.
EDIT: For people reading this, I no longer use this battery, because it's silly dangerous haha, and also I'm now using Mach Dash Pro motors, which have higher RPM and a more torque than Hyper Dashes. Less current draw than Plasma Dashes, which run far too hot to be useful in this purpose. They might work if you use lead free solder, I guess. The Mach Dashes are almost as fast, though.
I already have a few at home, so I thought that I would buy a cheapo just to pass the time. It would make a fun secondary, after my Raider or Retaliator.
I bought a Maverick, and have been modding it. Here is what I have done:
- did the Russian roulette mod
- removed air restrictors
- increased the air seal on the plunger tube with teflon tape
- added spring compression by adding 4 pennies to the back (also reinforced that area with hot glue)
- added a trigger spring to improve the rotation mechanism
- added foam in parts of the gun to lower rattling noise
- removed dead space from the barrel's entrance using hot glue and straws
- added a spring to the front assembly of the barrel to improve the air seal there
What else can I do? What kind of spring should I get?
Should I just get the Maverick spring on Orange Mod Works? I was going to buy a mod kit for my Raider there soon.
I'd like to get some PETG tubing to improve the seal inside the barrels, but I have no idea where to buy any. Replacing the barrels with PVC seems like too much work. I'd rather just insert PETG.
While your post legibility is excellent, and should be an example to all other FNGs, I don't want to leave this up as potential encouragement for more "what should I do to my blaster" threads.